LOSTCasts 15: Fire + Water

This latest podcast focuses on season 2 episode 12 of LOST, Fire + Water. In this podcast, Jorge Garcia (Hurley) leaves us an audio comment, we talk about Charlie's dreams and conflict with Locke. We also talk about the London skyline Easter Egg mentioned in the official LOST podcast, and the conversation between Hurley and Libby.

Download podcast #15 here

Here are some links related to the podcast:
The "Zeke" picture again (look at the bus)
Wikipedia entry on Battersea Power Station
Pink Floyd "Animals" album art
The Fuselage thread trying to crack the easter egg
New LOST blog worth checking out
Spoilerfix on the next episode, The Long Con

We don't get a new episode of LOST next week, but send us your comments. In particular, let us know your thoughts on the D.H.A.R.M.A. acronym, as well as any overall theories you'd like to discuss. In our week off of LOST, we'll have time to get back to doing a theory gut check. Post your comments here on the site, send us an email, or record an audio comment by calling our automated voicemail at 206-666-2278.

Stay LOST.

Comments

[Cihan]

You guys began the podcast with a good point in differentiating between viewers, the ones who theorize on the mystery elements and the more 'passive' ones who watch for the more conventional human drama. Im a fan of both approaches, I love obsessing over the show and I feel this episode wasnt 'filler' as some might call it, I dont think this show has any such episodes.

I disagree that this episode didnt move the story forward, we see a big change in locke's behaviour (violent against someone for the first time, hoarding drugs for some reason, his relationship with Aaron 'our boy'...). Plus charlie's hallucinations. I think its mostly clear that he wasnt on the drugs and the episode brings up the debate again about the 'sickness' and whether charlie's now suffering from it (how did he get to the beach with the baby without realising it? not the kind of behaviour displayed by anyone else who's seen crazy stuff too). I loved the last shot which was a mirror reflection of the episode The Moth where he took off his hood at the end.

The polar bear references: Walt has the most connection to the polar bear and we keep seeing it in flashbacks, and we could guess that maybe he's capable of remote viewing and telekenesis among other powers, so maybe he is responsible for other character's hallucinations and flashbacks in some way, kind of leaving his signature mark on them for some reason? Or something?

Btw: how did the whole suspicion of Libby start in the first place? If it wasnt for various forums and podcasts, I wouldnt have suspected her of anything really. Is it because she said she was a clinical psychologist? And this reminds people of the skinner experiment and Dharma, etc?

[alex gonzalez (LurfyBoy)]

I have heard rumors that we will be seeing "a nature centric jungle woman" in a couple upcoming episode. Alot of people think that this might be "Alex" but wouldn't it be a major plot twist if it was Sayids love interest that he had in the flashbacks.

[alex gonzalez (LurfyBoy)]

I have another funny feeling (same kinda feeling I still have with Michael meeting Zombie Walt) that the jungle all natured centric woman thats going to appear in the upcoming episodes isn't going to be Alex as thought, but perhaps Sayid's old love interest.

That would make a crazy plot twist
-Alex G

[alex gonzalez (LurfyBoy)]

sry i posted that twice

[Laura]

Part of me thinks that Locke gave Charlie some kind of hallucinogenic like he gave Boone, and I really like your theory about Walt's possible involvement, Cihan. However, the theory I am most inclined to believe is that "the monster" or whoever is behind the monster has given these hallucinations to Charlie.

Everyone speaks of Locke's and Eko's encounters with the monster, but Charlie was a party to Eko's encounter. In The Fusilage's thread about The Whispers, the soundtracks do show that the voices inside or behind the monster see Charlie. We were shown interactions between the monster and Eko, but that doesn't mean that there were no interactions between the monster and Charlie.

There is much debate as to whether the monster is reading the memories of the Losties or giving them memories. I believe that it is giving them memories. I think that what has happened to Charlie is evidence of this, only this time the programming is post-crash. They have given Charlie new memories AND have taken it further (or perhaps they did this all along) - in creating the memories they created actions or scenarios to cement the memories and/or test how strongly they are implanted into the subconscious of the Losties.

I wish I could explain this better, but I can't find the words. The basic gist is that the "monster" feeds memories into the Losties and now is implanting powerful thoughts (hallucinations) into the minds of those it encounters. Perhaps is testing them, as Locke claims the island does. It is testing to see if they will act in ways that the "monster" has programmed them to. So the "monster" not only implants memories and thoughts, but programs actions based on these "memories."

Eko has now become the resident priest - the man of faith - replacing Locke who has turned darker. Again, there may be 2 or 3 different "monsters" - one programming positive feelings, monotonies and actions, and another programming negative feelings, memories and actions. A third may be an actual defense mechanism or a control group of some kind.

There are so many connections here to the last 3 books of Stephen King's the Dark Tower. To anyone who has read them, is Lost not recreating both the town where the wolves took the children - one of each twin in a town of twins - and where Roland and his ka-tet organized them into an "army' to fight back? Most of all, isn't this a recreation of the end battle? I think so – right from the name to the research to the battle plans. There are even memory flashbacks! I really need to write this down and post it as soon as I am able.

I wonder if the Losties really need “the others” to fight against. It seems they are breaking apart so rapidly and destroying each other so well, they do not need an enemy. Who was it who said that he didn’t need help protecting himself from his enemies but from his friends? In the Hunting Party Jack turned against Kate (whose violent tendencies were beginning to show again on Fire and Water – don’t forget she attacked Charlie, too) and Jack lost all credibility as a leader (in my eyes). This week we saw Locke revert to his angry ways. He has lost all credibility to lead (in my eyes).

Like they all turned against Kate when Sawyer forced her to confess her past in front of the group; like they turned against Boone when he hid the water to save it, like they all turned against Sun when she spoke English in the group and like they all turned against Jin when he and Michael went at it, this week they all so dramatically lifted up their noses and turned their back on Charlie. But this time it was different, I think. This time the whole episode was so dark. Too bad the group has forgotten how they snubbed Locke for causing Boone’s death.

I think the quarantine sign was correctly engraved on this inside of the hatch. The outside of the island is a dangerous place. I do believe that the island sickness has infected the survivors of Flight 815.

[Dave]

great post Laura. I think the one thing that sticks out to me is your point about the monster making Charlie have his dreams/visions. I think back to when Locke tied Boone to the tree in season 1 and he saw Shannon in danger and eventually killed by the monster. Then Locke asked Boone if that was what "the island made you see." This may be the same thing that is happening to Charlie.

[Chris James]

Hey guys! Once again great show. I must comment on the spoiler provided near the end of the show.

Now I know you talked about the "Locke shot" as I call it, and from Season 1 episode 3 Tabula Rasa, we had been kind of questioning this guy because he was kind of creepy, and when his episode came, we found that he was a good guy. Well maybe the rehash of this shot is sort of a clue that maybe Locke isn't going to be so nice anymore. I remember one episode or an area in time where everyone was so excited at the possibility of Eko and Locke becoming friends and exploring the island, well it seems that, from the spoiler, that it could be the complete opposite. Although they are two of my favorite characters, well not so much Locke anymore, I think it would be quite an interesting conflict. It might be even more interesting than the Locke-Jack conflict.

I don't know. Let's just see how it all plays out. But this is obviously leading to a big Locke episode coming up, where hopefully we learn how he lost the use of his legs, and maybe it's even as shocking as the Kate revelation.

Peace.
~Chris James (S.M.A.R.T.S)

[biolite]

I have to agree with Laura. It seems that the whole group is begining to fracture and crumble. I think it's very probable that the increase in paranoia, "visions" distrust and general anger is the sickness. The question is wether the sickness is an actual infection or if it's just a psychological affect of being stranded on the island. Maybe the isolation is driving people crazy.

[Emily]

Concerning The Crumbling Group:
Do You Think If You Were Stuck On An Island With 50 So People, (Whom You've Never Meet Or Would Ever Associate With), That You Would Form The Perfect Society?
Hmm, I Do Believe The Flashbacks Have Little Meaning To Us Now But Lost Has Smart Writers. They'll Have Purpose. Common Guys Stop Rooting For Them To Leave The Flashbacks!
Just My Thought Of The Day..
Emily

[Pirate Guy]

Hey, just for those of you taking about the woman they find in key with nature, I heard a spoiler about who it is. If you don't want to know, then stop reading right about . . . now.

Anyway, the person is no other than . . . a character we've never been introduced to before named Jessica who is sixteen years old. Only a rumor, but that would be pretty cool to actually have a teenager on the island. Anyway, it's supposed to happen in Claire's episode at the end of February so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[Laura]

Emily, I can't find any post here that says or implies that people aren't happy with the writers or the use of flashbacks. What am I missing?

I think you and biolite have a valid point that this might be the normal reactions of an isolated group of strangers. "Lord of the Flies" showed us that perfectly and that book was used as a prop in Lost. Groups do tend to unite by creating a common enemy. Bickering even with friends and family is part of the human history.

Yet I honestly think what happened in fire and water was darker than just people not having a perfect or even "average" society. It certainly wouldn't account for Charlie's hallucinations.

I've been thinking about something else all day (you know you're a LOST addict when...) I wonder what Charlie was doing with the baby after the halluniation/dream of his mom and Claire as angels. We all assume he took the baby, either conciously or while sleep walking. I think he was honestly perplexed when Hurley woke him up. I don't believe he took the baby knowingly (that time) and I don't know if he could sleepwalk back to Claire's tent, take the baby (without waking Claire, Aaron or himself) and head for the beach while asleep. So how did Charlie and Aaron get to the beach where Hurley found them? Anyone have any ideas?

Peace, Laura

[Emily]

I'm Sorry If I Offended Anyone With That Last Comment. I Might Be Wrong But In Earlier Podcasts It Was Discussed To Cut Down On The Flashbacks. I Promise It Was Only A Sideline Comment And Not A Personal Attack.. Again Sorry.
Laura Great Thoughts, It's Late I'll Post My Ideas Tomorrow.

[Nathan T-Smith]

Hey guys just wanted to say love the podcast you guys are definatly doing the best lost one out there at the mo you make it much easier to keep up to date with eberything plus making me look smart with my mates. Just wanted to know what your thought on a couple of issues. Firstly we have heard Damon talking about lots of series of lost partly due to pressure or whatever from abc. I was wondering at what point you think they will start to give away some more key points, we have just seen the monster and zeke recently is that all we are going to get in season 2 with the rest of the season will just be one giant build up to the final show. I think this is probably what will happen maybe with one more question i dont no what. Secondly we have seen that one of the lost staff lost his job for saying there was no grand plan to lost. Now he clearly wasnt saying that to throw people off the sent cos he was fired, what do you that this to mean, I have heard you guys saying you thought that JJ had the whole idea planed in his head does this mean that he didnt and hes pulling all our legs. Cheers keep up the great work ill be listening. Nathan from Pontypridd UK.

[Shavetta]

I haven't listened to the podcasts, but checkout the boards during my break at work. Hopefully i'm not repeating something previously mentioned.

Its been a while since i've watched the old episodes, but I remember in a past episode (perhaps the scene when they kiss), in a shot showing dialog between Jack and Kate in the background for a few seconds you can see and green figure walking in the background. Perhaps its the girl that supposed to be one with nature?

[Shavetta]

I just now caught my typo...I should have previewed.

"I haven't yet listened to this week's podcast"

Awesome podcasts guys. I've listened to several and this one is by far the best.

[FreshCHUD]

This poscast refers to Libby not being at the front of the plane, so Hurley couln't have stepped on her foot. One thing odd though, I was watching the 1st season again and noticed that the flight attendant that was kidnapped quietly by the others was standing outside od Chrlies bathroom door at the front of the plane, not the tail end.

[Brandy]

Yea! My first podcast shout out! Thanks guys!!

Hey Emily, I also heard someone mention getting rid of the flashbacks on a podcast. I'm not sure which one though. I do think the flashbacks play into the story more than we know right now. And it's interesting to see how different personalities my react to being stranded on a crazy island.

My theories in a nutshell: The others decided Michael was "good," so they used their Walt connection to beckon him. Charlie has island fever. Libby might be an other, or she might just be a girl who's flustered around a guy she likes. The verdict's still out on Locke. He was one of my favorites until he slugged Charlie. I think he might be turning to the dark side.

Loved your Chuck Norris "facts." Thanks for keeping me laughing at work.

~Back to the Future Girl

[Lenny B]

New Theory:

I'm new to the pod casts this season and myself and a few of my friends are throwing around the purgatory theory. I'm thinking that the island is a kind of purgatory where you stay before going to the after life. It seems that every time someone resolves their "problems" they are killed off. When Shannon finally got someone to believe in her (Sayid) she was killed. When Boone finally let go of loving Shannon he left/died. Everyone there has a certain dilemma they are struggling with. The children are taken away (too innocent). Black smoke is death. I'm thinking they all were killed in the crash and everyone there is dead, just dealing with their past life on earth. Once they wrestle down their fears, guilt, insecurities, they can move on and let death take them… Love your casts!!!!! I've turned on many people to them.

[Filmdog]

Great discussion on Fire + Water. I think the questions this episode raised about Locke may be more important than any of us realize. On the Official Lost Podcast reviewing Collision, Lindelhoff and Cruse dwelled at length about the meeting of Locke and Ecko and how critical their “seminal, mystical” relationship would become. People have talked about Ecko replacing Locke as the man of faith, but there’s a distinct difference. Ecko is a man of religious faith, and Locke seems to be rejecting that at every step. He discounted any importance in baptism, and in an earlier episode told Ecko that he wasn’t familiar with the Tower of Babel story Ecko cited. Is this just the difference between religious faith and humanist faith, or is there something more sinister going on?

[blinder]

Filmdog, your comments prompted me to go back and look at some things about the real John Locke (the philosopher). He was very much a secularist. He looked to man's relationship to nature and not religion as he created his theories on the human condition.

The real Locke's "Social Contract" and other philosophies inspired many of those who planned the secular democratic US government.

What you brought up here gives more weight to the idea that Locke the lost character has an outlook based on that of Locke the philosopher. He's a student of nature and social behavior, not god.

Locke the philosopher was a decent guy who's considerations on society have lead to very positive historical achievements (and I say that having done very limited research). Will Locke have a similar influence on his society?

I'm betting no. I think we're going to see the real John Locke's philosophies get twisted up by the Lost Locke. That'll make for more drama anyway.

[jeremiah]

Nice roundup of spoilers from TVSquad.
http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/02/01/spoilers-anonymous/

[SolGlo3]

http://emri.perception.net/

[Dennis F]

Hey Guys,
Just want to say I love your podcast, it totally rocks. But ummm I'll just get into it then. In the episode Fire + Water, during Charlies seacond daydream/ hallucination he sees Claire, and his Mother shown as angles. If you look in the very top left coner of the screen, where the trees hit the skyline, right before the dove appears you can see another plane crashing on the island, and it is not Flight 815, or Eko's drug plane.
Also, another thing I noticed while watching Fire + Water a second time is that right when the dove appears,you can see another dove fly down with it. The second dove is pure black. As I watched it agian I looked closly at the second dove, and noticed that it is not a second dove at all, but a pure black shawdow of the first white dove. This goes along with many of the Black and White theories that are going around. Another thing is that earlier today when I was looking at The Fuselage in the V.I.P. section I saw one of comment left by J.J. Abrams one of those message to the fan comments. In the comment he says that in Charlies seacond daydream/ hallucination there will be two very important things (the two things I just mentioned) and he said that they are both very important.

Stay Lost,
Dennis

[Lynette]

In watching the repeat, I began to wonder why they showed us that particular episode. A large focus of that episode is Locke building the cradle. Has it occured to anyone that in Charlie's vision, it was Locke's cradle, sweeping the baby away, perhaps giving us a clue that it is Locke who is the danger to the baby? That fits in with those who think that Locke realizes Charlie's visions are a danger to his plans and attacked him.

I also believe that the magnet in the hatch was bringing out the psychic/supernatural phenomena in the survivors, but now that it's effects are not being dampened by earth, and they are exposed to it more fully, it is affecting their sanity. I think both Michael and Locke have exhibited signs of uncharacteristic and irrational behavior that could be explained by that theory.

[Adam]

I was talking to my US gf about this episode before I saw it and this struck me. Not only was the episode Charlie-centric but it could also have been told from his point of view. Why does Locke seem all over Claire and her "baibee"? Because Charlie is jealous of the attention. Which could also be why Locke seems so out of character in this episode - he is seen through Charlie's eyes.

Thinking about this, The Hunting Party becomes very interesting. If this is seen through Jack's eyes is this why Kate was so, so sorry about everything? We say that Jack reasserted his leadership over the group. Did he really or did he in his own mind?