LOSTCasts 27: ?

Only a few more episodes of LOST left, and this week's didn't disappoint. This latest podcast focuses on season 2, episode 21 of LOST, "?." In this podcast we talk about Eko's backstory, the relationship between Eko and Locke, the new hatch aka "the pearl", Marvin Candle vs. Mark Wickman, some speculation about what this new hatch means in terms of overall theories, we revisit the implications this new hatch has on "the map", talk a little about Libby's death and as always, we delve into the LOST experience and LOST spoilers. We also get some alternate points of view on ABC's decision to block international free streaming of LOST.

Download podcast #27 here

Links related to the podcast:
Wikipedia entry for Jules Verne's Mysterious Island
Amazon link to Jules Verne's Mysterious Island
Screencaps of flashback images in Eko's dream
Youtube version of "the pearl" orientation film
Screencap of Swan logo on computer in "the pearl"
Transcript of season 2 episode 21 of LOST, "?"
Screenshot of circle in grass? Or question mark?
Wikipedia entry for Princeton (PEARL) project

LOST Experience links:
Official ABC "Inside the Experience" Blog
www.experience-lost.com
www.sublymonal.com
Hanso newspaper ads condemning "Bad Twin"

Stay LOST.

Comments

[Doctor Manhattan]

Thank you guys for this show. I love lost but don't have the time to visit all the forums...

[Cihan]

Before I listen to this podcast, something I wanted to comment on:

I've just realised that in the Pearl orientation video, the people in the other bunkers are referred to as 'team members'. The island and the bunkers, all seems like one long training process designed to weed out people who arent fit for whatever it is Dharma needs people for. The stations are tests and who knows what the 'winners' will be involved in afterwards. This theory gains weight when you hear the narrator say that after their task in the Pearl bunker, they will take a ferry to the barracks to 'prepare for the next' and the rest is illegible, but you get the drift. Maybe each participant starts in bunker 1 and when they pass the psychological test (in the Swan's case, NOT pushing the button) they move onto the next bunker, all the way up to 6 and then, who knows what happens.

The fact that the narrator says 'good luck' at the end of each video might mean that in some cases the persons watching are aware they're taking part in a test, or its simply a mean joke on Dharma's part. This is all very interesting stuff...I've always wanted Dharma to not be what we've always thought it was, and it may turn out that way, but then again the Hanso foundation Lost experience does allude to these experiments being valid. But anyway, remember folks, 'team members' is the key phrase here! Let us dwell on it.

[crapjohnson]

Just to clarify because you guys weren't sure when you are talking about it, both the Swan and Pearl orientation films are copyrighted 1980, the Swan is not 1981.

[Cihan]

1] I really agree with Matt's take on the design of the Swan hatch, the way its meant to elicit a feeling of something gone terribly wrong and that the 'quarantine' sign is meaningless, etc. Really ties in with my observation above about the bunkers all being logical progression style tests, not merely skinner boxes, but one with a genuine goal, some ultimate goal awaiting the winners.

I posted an update to the theory, and reference Brit gameshow The Krypton Factor, here:

http://lostpodcast.proboards2.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1147557682

2] Good reasoning John (I think it was John who said this): there are screens recording the hatch and yet the people in the Pearl are told to write down what they see; every minute detail. Its yet another case of the participants of Dharma being told to do some dubious task that they either accept without hesitation, or they question it. (and move to the next bunker/test! :P )

3] COME ON!!! How can you not see a question mark!? Its blatantly there! Plus the episode's got nothing but "?" all over it! Submit! SUBMIT AND ACCEPT THE QUESTION MARK!

4] I like the fact that the majority of fans say, and really want, the button to mean something, its like the audience is also part of the test, the thought of the button doing nothing is too hard to bear, heh. I guess if the button does nothing there's the risk of the series feeling anti-climactic, but the writers are good enough to make it dramatic, and it would just be the better way to go with it, I think.

[Mike Jefferson]

Dominic/Charlie was on Kimmel last night, and they showed a scene from the next episode. He's in the newly discovered hatch with Echo. Echo's tells Charlie he's (Echo) moving into it.

[crapjohnson]

Actually I saw that too and that wasn't the new hatch it was just the Pearl, Mike. Eko said to Locke if he won't continue to push the button, he would, so that's what he's doing.

Regarding the question mark/not question mark thing, how can people seriously suggest it's not a question mark? I agree with what Cihan said on this. Simply based on the fact that the episode was called ? and had ? imagery all over it, why would people think that what Eko saw in the grass from above was not a ? Here's a good shot: http://lost.cubit.net/pics/2x21/questionMark.jpg

That said, I do NOT think the Pearl was the big ? in the center of the blast door map. I heard an excellent idea while listening to this latest cast, forget which one of you said it, but on the blast door map there is a smaller question mark north of the Swan as well. Locke probably didn't transcribe this one onto his version of the map and this is the one they really found.

[crapjohnson]

In my above post I meant to say that in that scene Eko was in the Swan, NOT the Pearl.

[Mark B]

I can't download the podcast at the moment it keeps timing out --- arrrrrggghhh

But as I've said before I don't think The Pearl is the "?" (given my history of predicting stuff it probably is). My reasoning is that

1. The ? is going to be a bigger deal than people watching people. This is clearly another 'button pushing' type experiment.
2. The orientation film for the Pearl was 5 of 6. I count 6 hatches (Swan, Flame Staff, Arrow, C3? and C4?) not including the "?" I think Eko and Locke are in either C3 or C4. I don't think there will be an orientation video for the "?" the other hatchs will have one hence 5 of 6. Though I have to admit what the Arrow station is for I'm not sure.
3. The little ? is, I think, just where the mapmaker thought another Swan exit/entrance was.
4. The ? in the grass looks more like a circle to me rather than a ?.

Just cause Eko and Locke go looking for something it does not mean they find it.

I think Locke delibrately sent the map up the tube as he didn't want Eko seeing it to realise that they were not at the ?. Locke knows and will go looking again.

The only counter arguement that I can see is that Yemi was trying to get Eko/Locke to the "?" so why was he on the top of the cliff ?

[Cihan]

crapjohnson: Thanks for that image link, with the HIGHLIGHTED question mark. :)

And yeah, there is a smaller question mark just north of the Swan, I really think thats where the Pearl bunker is. I've just had another idea, it may not be one of the 6 bunkers (even though the orientation identifies it as 5 of the 6), but it may connect directly to one via a tunnel. You'll remember that all of the bunkers have tunnels that are blocked. There's also mention of 'subterranean conduit'. Something to think about maybe.

[Matt Lafferty]

Cihan, you make reference to the smaller question mark just north of the swan. On the map that I'm looking at (from lost.cubit.net) I don't see it--though it's a map that is heavily annotated, so it's possible that the annotations are covering the question mark. Any chance you could post a link to whatever version of the map you're seeing the small question mark on?

CrapJohnson, regarding your question, "How can people seriously suggest it's not a question mark?" here are a few responses:

1) Eko called it a circle, ergo the writers called it a circle. While they (the writers) hypothetically maybe trying to trick us, the fact that they made Eko say "circle" opens the possibility that the shapes ratio of its circumference to its diameter might be 3.14 or so.

2) Even the best question mark conspiracy theorists, including the link you posted (http://lost.cubit.net/pics/2x21/questionMark.jpg) include the char from the plane's burning--hardly put there by Dharma.

3) As that incredibly humbled Matt Lafferty fellow was quoted as saying in the podcast (Woo hoo!! Thanks guys, you made my day!!), the blast door map makes reference "The Pearl" ostensibly on the right side of the map, not the center.

4) I'm not sure if reposting from the "Get Ready: ?" thread is like... uh... a cool thing to do or not, but here's what I said this morning (Saturday) after rewatching:

To those who claim that the Question Mark Hatch was found, let me point something out that a rewatching of the episode has shown me. Locke's hand-drawn map has six circles (stations) surrounding the question mark. Each station is exactly 2 "hours" aparts (2 o'clock position, 4 o'clock position, 6, 8, 10, and 12). Our map has six stations around the question mark, with each station about 2 hours apart, though the arrow is to the right of center.

Locke's map has the Swan at 6, the Staff at 10, and the Arrow at 2. Our map has the Swan at 6, the Staff at 10... and the Arrow at 12!

Eko says, "If the Swan is where we came from" and points one way (lets say for arguments sake he points to tree A), and concludes "then we go that way" and he points to the RIGHT of tree A!! Not only does Locke's map differ significantly with its location of the Arrow... BUT EKO TAKES THEM IN THE WRONG DIRECTION--regardless of which map you use! On both maps, whether the Arrow is at 2 o'clock or slightly right of 12 o'clock, the Question Mark is to the LEFT (with the Swan directly behind you at 6 o'clock)!! Additionally, after Eko points them on the wrong direction, he has a moment where he studies the map, freezes, then folds it up and pockets it. GPS it isn't. Boy Scouts it ain't!

Indeed, as I suggested in my earlier post on the matter, just as our map shows references to "The Pearl?" and a "RVS facility" (remove viewing station/satellite?) TO THE RIGHT, Eko takes them TO THE RIGHT.

Many a post on this site ends with the statement "stay lost!" Guess what Eko and Locke do while looking for the center of the island?

They Stay Lost.

[Papertiger]

I can't get the podcast to download either! Too bad--been looking forward to it. Pleasantly surprised to see from your links list that you're going to talk about Mysterious Island---I've been thinking about the parallels for some time--a great old book. Had forgotten about "Jupiter"/Joop though. Looking forward to listening!

[scottydo]

yeah, I'm having trouble downloading the podcast too. I can't even link through the url...er, nothing else to say. Cheers guys...

[Bryan]

Is Libson hosting down because none of my podcasts are downloading including this one.

HELLLEEEPEPEPEPEPLELEEEP

I have not listened to the cast yet but in pretty sure that the thing they are all staring at in the sea is the ferryboat.

[Rok]

i said it before, i will say it again: we found the pearl station. it is the same thing designated by the question mark on the blast door map. whoever made that blast door map merely scrawled what he/she had found by scouting around the middle of the hatches-to-date while his swan-mate was on an extended shift. he looked down from the cliff, and to him, it looked like a question mark. so that's what he wrote down and brought back with him. now it COULD have been created to simply be a circle... in other words, the "pearl," with a quadrant of it having over-grown over enough time.

i think people are beginning to out-think themselves. can we not just accept that the pearl station is the ? on the map until we're told otherwise? if not, i fear we'll get into these never-ending debates like "one group others, no TWO groups of others" arguments...

by the way, haven't gotten the podcast yet (same difficulties here), but for the preview next week, there is a black & white flashback of someone injecting michael with something while he is tied up. what if the others injected him with a slow-acting poison, and told him "you have three days before this kills you to bring back the leaders of the survivors, and to free our man from the hatch. fail, and you'll die never having seen your son again. and do not tell ANYone, because we have a MOLE among you still, and if you tell anyone, we'll know." (my guess: kate, due to all of her stupid mistakes lately, AND being "captured" by the others... she may have just been used as a ploy to get the guns away from jack and make him go away)

it'd still be tough to have sympathy for michael after what he did, but if he had a virtual noose around his AND his son's neck, i could understand.

[crapjohnson]

Matt Lafferty: Regarding the whole thing about Eko calling it a circle, I took it as that he was referring to the entire clearing where the ? and the plane were. Here's what I mean: http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6131/fdsaf6sl.jpg

Also, when you talk about Eko leading them in the wrong direction from the start, I almost interpreted that scene that way too, but I realized what really happened. When Eko began pointing in a direction and said "if the Swan is where we came from", he was just saying that, but was pointing to the direction he wanted to go the whole time. So therefore, going by Locke's map, they did go in the right direction.

On an unrelated note, I have to say something about the new orientation film. I'm stunned that some people are actually just taking this at face value and accepting that the Swan is nothing more than an experiment and the button does nothing. Besides that being a horribly disappointing ending to the whole storyline, I believe this is all just another part in the deception, one way or another. As Eko said, they are being tested. I put more stock into Eko's dream, with Yemi saying "the work being done here is more important than anything", rather than believe these films which could both contain completely duplicitous information for all we know.

[Cihan]

Matt: I can vaguely see the question mark in most of the map pics I've got but here is the clearest version of it:

http://xs300.xs.to/xs300/06190/lost_dharma_decoded-751672.jpg

crapjohnson: It really is 50/50 at this point with the Dharma videos, the writers have really confused the hell out of us! I dont think the button doing nothing is disappointing, the writers can play it out in a number of exciting ways; I just want to see Jack's expression really, haha. As for the dreams, I get the feeling they're from another entity, human or otherwise, and they move the survivors around the island like chess pieces for its/his/her own needs. Would be cool if its all Walt's doing.

[David]

Someone had asked about some of the "whispers" on the audiobook. I downloaded the audiobook on iTunes, cause I was too lazy to read it, and there were only three times when I caught what the whispers were saying. Once they said "Hanso" (or possibly Alvar Hanso? I forget) once it was "Mittlework" and once it was "Zander"... all three being characters (albeit, the first two were only mentioned two or three times in the whole book) Zander is the supposed "Bad Twin".

I highly recommend the audiobook, as you can just sort of let it play in the background, and tune out the "flowery bits" :)

[Cassie]

Hey-
hope everyone finally got their podcasts to download- I had some issues also.
The podcast this week makes mention of a psych experiment where the "subject" (who thinks he is helping to perform the experiment) must shock a person hidden in another room. This was also mentioned much earlier- I think in a theory podcast. Anyway- the experiment is called the Milgram experiment, and the wiki is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

I saw the video they made of it while I was an undergrad, and it's pretty odd. There are some chilling clips where the person being shocked is begging for them to stop, and also points were the person being shocked stops responding to the questions, and the shocker keeps going!

Three important parts that may be relevant to LOST: one, in part because of the nature of this study, they created a board to screen psyche experiments, and experimentation like this is now illegal (hence, the need to go to an unplottable island in the Pacific...) two, one of the important parts of the experiment is that the person giving the orders must look "authoritative", in the Milgram experiment video it is specially noted that he always wears a lab coat (Like our armless friend in the Swan video), and three, the results are often used (or were, until they were deemed to controversial to be "real" data) to that all humans have the ability to punish another person to the point of mortal harm if they are ordered to do so by someone they perceive as an "authority." Sort of a psychological proof of the "I was just following orders" defense.

(and an aside, yaymyemailwasmentioned!! )
thanks once again for a great podcast.

[Nate]

Ok, my freind had this theory that another plane will crash in the next episode or season finale. There are three pieces of evidence proving it.

The creator's have said that there will be alot more characters coming in next year. They said that it will become clear in the finale where they came from. What if they came from another plane?

In the preview all the lostaways are standing on the beach staring and somthing. That could be the plane crashing.

Finnaly we all no we will find out why/how the plane crashed in the finale, could we find this out from seeing another one crash?

I no theres not much evidence, but for some reason i really think this might happen.

[matt beale]

Nate - nice theory.... I also thought about 'another' plane crash... 2 so far that we know of.... (3 if you count the balloon)... the losties certainly looked shocked on the beach scene

I've not heard about 'more characters', but certainly heard about how we'll hear about how 815 crashed, and time is running out for us to find that out...

It certainly would end on a major cliffhanger for Season 3!

[Michael]

I hope you are right about another plane crash. With a story like LOST, we connect to the characters, but the writers need to kill off people for dramatic purposes and to move the story forward. Unless they bring on a new group of Lost-aways, we will end up with a small group of characters eventually. The idea that another plane crashes gives a lot of fodder to new story lines (especially if these new losties are somehow connected to the originals...)

Off topic...Loved the podcast, you spoke of the E3? what the heck is that?

[David]

Great podcast guys, you made my hour and a half of cardio at the gym a lot more enjoyable :-)

[rob]

I love the podcasts and the theories, but I think you guys end up overanalyzing things. The episode titles have consistenly been spot-on about what's going on in the episode. Hence, here, I think we can assume the "?" of the title simply refers to the mystery that was on the hatch. The author of the map knew that something was out there, but didn't know exactly where/what it was (kinda like X marks the spot). The mystery was solved by Eko and Locke. X marks the spot, and the ? turns out to be the Pearl. The shows creators have mislead us slightly before, but they've been pretty careful not to completely confuse (and potential lose) the audience.

I have the same opinion about "the Others." There may very well be two groups of others, but we've seen VERY little supporting that possibility. The "?" on the map may be something besides the Pearl, but what do we have besides speculation. I recall theories on whether Libby was an "Other" or not, whether she was on the plane or not, but just based on what we've seen, it can't be supported. Maybe the official podcast will confirm/deny some of this speculation.

While I still love your podcasts, I think the skepticism that we all direct towards the broadcasts gets to a point where it actually takes away from enjoying the show for what it is.

[rob]

Append to previos post, from Wikipedia:

"Occam's razor states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. . . . Furthermore, when multiple competing theories have equal predictive powers, the principle recommends selecting those that introduce the fewest assumptions and postulate the fewest hypothetical entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood.

[amy]

I was listening to your podcast about the recent episode '?' (great podcast by the way) where you were talking about the website, sublymonal.com. i decided to have a look on it, and, being the useless speller that i am, went to www.sublymanol.com where i discovered something...
To quote directly off the website, it says:

"The Foundation was created in 1960 to facilitate a better society through Genetic Engineering and Cloning. Phase 1 of the project was set to begin on a remote Island off the coast of Australia. The project was abruptly cancelled when strange things began to occur at the test site. In an effort to salvage the project a team of scientists were set to conduct remote viewing experiments in an isolated bunker. They failed. In 1970 Dharma Industries DI was formed to oversee all activities associated with the human genetic engineer project, genetic engineering, dna clone restructuring and the science of human cloning. After a series of mysterious deaths, DI was shut down and the human cloning project abruptly cancelled. Five years following the dissolution of the Foundation it was discovered that a team of genetic researchers had survived and were still living and conducting cloning experiments on the island. The Foundation is ERROR ERROR..........................................................................................................ERROR ERROR...........9*&^&&%sun*^*(*)((*&(*..............................................................................................."

That was when it went a bit crazy... it says loads more about cloning and stuff, and also mentions how an embryo was cloned successfully in Korea for 5 days (hence why it mentions Sun in the 'Error' message? I haven't really got time to go through it, but I thought I'd just tell you. And say what a great show you guys are running.