LOSTCasts 36: A Tale of Two Cities

Season 3 has begun, and so have the podcasts! In this first podcast for season 3, we discuss the season 3 premiere of LOST, A Tale of Two Cities. We discuss how this first episode stacks up to previous seasons, as well as some of the pressures on the creators, including the ratings that this first episode of LOST has garnered. In addition, we talk about what we've learned of the others, and discuss the different situations of Jack, Sawyer and Kate. We also explore some of the larger issues of different groups on the island, and speculations about what may happen next. As always, we finish off the podcast with some spoilers, and information about next week's episode.

Download podcast #36 here

Links related to the podcast:
Transcript - A Tale of Two Cities
Screen capture: Black Smoke?
Screen capture: Carrie
Wikipedia entry - Carrie
Screen capture: Othersville
Great map from listener "I Love Sayid"
Screen capture: Jack's crossword
Screen capture: Hydra logo on pipe
Screen capture: Closeup of Hydra logo
Wikipedia entry: Hydra (mythological)
Wikipedia entry: Hydra (organism)

LOST links:
Official LOST wiki
Official LOST Theories Forum
NY Times article on LOST
Official LOST video podcast

Join us next week... a new episode, and a new podcast!

Stay LOST.

Comments

[matt beale]

Thanks! can now put my feet up and enjoy my Sunday night !

Can't wait to listen to this one... Here's to a great Season 3!

[Art_Vandelei]

This are my thoughts about the episode. they are a little late, cause the podcast is already there, but I still want to share them, if they havn't been said already.
HI, here are a few things:
1. The opening song for this season premiere is not the same from the season 2 opening. It just sounds similar, in the same style.
2. Great episode!!
3. I've thought a lot about the recruiting theory.I really think the following two weeks that Tom mentions to kate are some kind of an insertion process, a recruitong process. I wouldn't discard sawyer and kate as candidates, just because they are not with jack. We must consider that th others have a lot of info on the three of them, so If I were them, and was trying to get them because they are for some reason "the good ones", i wouldn't necessearyly use the same approach. They are different and will respond to different things. Also the fact that sawyer and kate are just a few steps from each other, it doesn't mean the wil be under the same psicolgical process.

What do u guys think??

[rubycalaber]

May I just say that Lostpedia is far better than the official Lost wiki?

[Nash Borges]

Could someone put the "I Love Sayid" map on a different server? It's exceeded the bandwidth limit of freefileupload.net.

[connor clements]

Siobhan - Pronounced "shiv + awn"

Great podcast!

[I_Love_Sayid]

Hey all, glad you liked the map. I just redesigned it using a better program and will get it up onto the web later today. Sorry it was in such a crappy format but I had to get the thoughts out as quickly as I could so I could get feedback. :)

[Joop]

Ben is a bad bad man. There seems to be a real cult like atmosphere w/in othersville; evidenced by the cool-aid drinking Adam and the comment by Juliet, "I thought there was still free will on the ...."

I like the idea about the numbers being a big part of the plot. In the Sri Lanka video Alvar Hanzo talks about the vanzetti equation saving the world. Middlework says the Darma Inititive failed. Why?

I think a religious cult formed by some mad scientist, either Ben or the "great one" that Zeke and Henry,Fenry, Benry refer to. This cult may be as wide spread as keeping Alvar Hanzo prisoner in his own home.

There are way to many instances of the numbers appearing in seasons one and two that lead me to agree that the numbers are huge. the numbers are back and there pissed!

P.S. Am I high or is that Miss Clue at the book club meeting?

[Scott]

great podcast!! thanks for including my comment!

thought you all might want to know.... DESMOND IS JESUS!!!

check out his movie...
www.gospelofjohnthefilm.com

[AVDJ]

You guys have done it again! Nice work, as always. It was great to have your book club podcasts over the summer, but I have to admit that I am very happy that we are talking about actual episodes again.

I wonder about this hydra hatch. I think they are all in the same hatch area, since it is Juliette who catches Sawyer, unless we do not realize that we are being shown information out of chronological order. That would not be inconceivable with LOST.

I am not sure if the going thoery is that the smoke monster travles through the subterrainian conduit, but I had a few ideas about the monster. It seems like those who get a specific visitation from the smoke monster start to have visions for a while, and maybe they are under the spell of the smoke. I think it has "visited" the following people in this order:

Jack - in the first shot of the show (then saw his father)
Locke - in the woods (then saw the small plane crash)
Hurley - in the season 1 finale (then saw Dave)
Kate - in the season 1 finale (then saw the Horse)
Echo - in the clearing with Charlie (then saw postmordum Anna Lucia)
Charlie - in the clearing with Echo (then saw the Virgin Mary and child visions)

Maybe the smoke monster causes a temporary loss of control for those who it visits, and they are unwittingly forced to follow a path that they otherwise would not have followed. I am sure someone else out there has thought about this. Has anyone else on the island had a visitation?

Also, it is always nice to see your expansions of your project, such as the alternate web pages you have set up, and the skypecast and the special appearences of our friends from other podcasts. In the end, I consider your show to be the definative source for all things LOST. Thanks.

[Sobaika]

Random note - it was said in the podcast that the food drops were still going on bcause the numbers were still being broadcast. I may be wrong, but I had gathered from the Lost Experience video and the show that the numbers used to be broadcast but Rousseau had changed it to her French SOS. She told Hurley the numbers were on a loop before she got there. It was a good theory, but I'm thinking that the food isn't still arriving because of the numbers.

[I_Love_Sayid]

Here's the new link to the map from yesterday. Tell me what you all think...and sorry in advance for any spelling errors and such.

http://www.geocities.com/colwildr/OthersvilleMap.html

[adam!]

for lack of anything better to do as i wait for my dial-up to download the latest LOSTcast, i tried to draw (yet another) version of the ISLAND MAP, based on a lot of screencaps and other fan-made maps, with only ONE MAJOR INCONSISTENCY (so far), but pretty much everything else is taken into account (and no, the "?" isn't there, as i think the "?" in the HATCH MAP is more pyschogeographical than cartographical, which is what the map i drew represents).

link for the map image -> http://static.flickr.com/92/264413070_d3709a3431_b.jpg

link for map image annotations (must have flickr account to annotate) -> http://flickr.com/photos/adamdavid/264413070/

comments, please, comments!

[adam!]

and, erm, in the map, when i said "MOUTH OF ISLAND VALLEY where majority of seasons 2 & 3 took place" i meant "seasons 1 & 2"!

[ursinha]

I think the other set of others (others2) is going to in someway help jack, kate, and sawyer escape thus introducing "the brazilian tom cruise." the others2 will bring in their own mysteries, etc. i can't think of any other way it will happen. the writers need to bring the others2 in, preserve the mystique of the original others, and get the losties out of the jam.

alright, alright, alright...light 'em up. this is my fav. line in all of the episodes. stay lost!

[jack+sayid=durtyislandluv]

Another great podcast.

I would totally love a php board or something on the site.

I'm over at the numbers now, but a board here would be more hardcore.

[Sarah]

Hey, great podcast! But yall had said that we won't find out who the father of Sun's baby is until the season finale. I read in a TV Guide magazine that the actor who plays Sun says we won't find that out until the show finale. It could be wrong because that same magazine said the October 11 episode is Locke-centric and features "a trippy dream sequence" so it could've been wrong... Has anybody else heard anything about that?

Sarah

P.S. Thanks for playing my comment! It was quite an experience to hear myself on there haha

[Matt Lafferty]

John, Robert, and Matt,
An honor and a privelidge to be mentioned in the podcast. Chattin' away on the comments section with the other fine posters is a reward in and of itself, but as always to be mentioned is a treat!

@ I Love Sayid,
Fantastic redesign of your map! I'm proud to have been mentioned in your awesome undertaking. The really interesting thing about your map is that it is so incredibly consistent; all the facts that you mention (including those of riverfr0zen) fit snugly into it--except for one thing, and I think I can explain that:

Your location of the Hydra is where the blast door map puts The Flame. Isn't it reasonable that the mapmakers could have misunderstood the Hydra symbol to be a flame? After all, the blast door map does say "ALLEGED location of the Flame." (I know from previous comments that the Hydra location might be best suited where you have it due to the reference to the "heavy water table, and I agree; I'll just point out though that an alternative locaton for the Hydra could be, possibly, the scratched out location, which your map has as Sc.)

Again, a fantastic job on your thought-provoking map!!

Adam,
I'm still pouring over YOUR map (goodness, I'm glad I teach social studies in addition to language arts, 'cause this map stuff is great!)! It too looks to be amazingly consistent, and I love that you've annotated WHY you put certain things where you did. I notice that the shape of your map isnt in the tidy Dharma shape, but I'm reminded of a listener comment on here that perhaps the blast door map is like a subway map--not a to-scale representation, but more of an overall visual representation.

I see that you put the Hydra to be northeast, or abouts where "C3?" is on the blast door map, so that would work too. Also, your inclusion of the "fake hatch" from the season 2 finale makes me wonder if it might be the scratched out hatch on the blast door (though, granted, the blast door has it on the opposite side of the Arrow from where you have it. But hey, at a certain point, the makers of the blast door map in the show, the creators version of the map somewhere, filming inconsistencies, etc, will lead to SOME errors that we need to be prepared to discard).

Anywho, I love these map discussions! Stay Lost!

[I_Love_Sayid]

@adam!
love your map...the graphics alone are great. I especially like where you have Danielle's Season 1 hideout. It makes alot of sense considering Sayid's orientation while traveling along the beach to her camp. I am hesitant to agree fully due to the confusion surrounding the treck to it from the Swan... On the way to it Sayid was captured and knocked out and on his way back he was disoriented. The Hurly led team followed a path fashioned with a rope bridge that Sayid felt "was there before", then they were chased to and fro by the monster and gun fire. lot's of confusion. But still, that location sounds right to me. Also, I'm very curios as to how you came up with Desmond's sailing path.

@matt
Thanks for the acknowledgement. Having your backing means alot. I tend to think your the rock god around here. Also, I agree that the Flame Station could've been a red herring. That's why I didn't hesitate to forget it and rename the station the Hydra. I also think that if the scribbled out station was the Hydra, then the Tailies would've come across the outer structures (large pipes and cages, etc). So would've Danielle. That's why I prefer to think as adam! does, that her camp resides on the other side of the island. Of course, this is only on the assumption that the Tailies crash site is where I assume it is.

[adam!]

@john k, robert s: just finished listening to the podcast, and your script rereading reminded me of the David Letterman segment that had a couple of his stagehands rereading highlights from Oprah Winfrey transcripts! you should do these things more often (although not too often!).

ethan down juliet's house "fixing the plumbing" sounds sexual to me more than anything else. maybe a subtle three-step joke, like ARRESTED DEVELOPMENT's "i don't want this boat to smell like fish!" SEAWARD yacht joke?

@matt l: what you said about the numbers being some magical construct reminded me of some of Alan Moore's (and most of Philip Dick's and Grant Morrison's, and Douglas Rushkoff's) "comic books as sigils" meant to hack reality, magic being "strings of information" a magician manipulates to bend reality, very much like Neo's "code-vision" in the Matrix movies. thinking obtusely along this vein, one could conclude that practitioners of hard maths and science (ie, the DHARMA scientists) can effectively be called "magicians", and the LOST number string as a sigil released throughout the world (like the hindu OM mantra) to call other like-minded individuals to it (the island, the research) and/or to hack reality, to lift the veil of illusion and see the world for the hologram that it is (a la WAKING LIFE).

i think DHARMA used to see the answer to the numbers problem via the De Groots' (and Alvar Hanso's) life enhancement of the entire human race, mimicking WATCHMEN's Adrian Veidt mimicking Alexander the Great untying the Gordian Knot, answering the human extinction problem laterally by helping evolve humans so high up the ladder that nature would deem them a new species, post-humans, and maybe not kill everyone out. DHARMA scientists as bodhisattvas? extremely likely, considering everything else we've seen in the De Groots' home videos.

but now, with Mittelwerk taking over the Hanso Foundation and the DHARMA Initiative, being (for me, at least) more on the western business mindset than in the eastern mystical mindset, strives to laterally answer the human extinction problem at the direct opposite of the De Groots' bodhisattva route: exterminate 30% of the world population, thus destroying the balance/value of the Valenzetti Equation's sequence (i have the impression that the numbers' values' escalating nature indicates a technological singularity spike of sorts somewhere in the horizon, only with population growth, so maybe LOST is about the End Of Days?).

fuzzy chaos math (and superstring sciences) being today's (and tomorrow's) magic, population growth planetary choke being today's (and tomorrow's) End Of Days... very possible!

@matt, again, and i love sayid (i do too, heterosexually): the LOST island being bagua-shaped is too... unnatural... to be possible. LOST takes great pains in showing us (the Black Rock, the Four-Toed Statue Foot) that even if it had DHARMA putting up installations around the island, they didn't effectively terraform it (to shape it into an octagon). i now see Locke's hatch map being more pyschogeographical (read up on Iain Sinclair and Alan Moore and Stewart Home in wiki, and various, regarding pyschogeography) than literal cartography.

i placed the hatches around the map where i thought they would be based on how (and where) the characters moved in the island, in relation to the main beach and the SWAN hatch, and from what elementary knowledge i have of cartography. for example, i (sort of assume, really) know that the STAFF was carved into a mountain face facing into the main island valley north of the SWAN, so i placed the STAFF along the eastern (inner valley) face of the mountain range west of the island.

i put the PALA FERRY where i think i see OTHERSVILLE (and the crater) should be (inside the northern crater) because logically people would build their encampments near/along waterways, and logically put the main pier near the established trade routes (mentioned by Arzt as being majorly northern (also Sayid mentioning to Jin & Sun that they'd be yachtrocking towards the northern tip of the island)), thus PALA FERRY being in the northern tip.

i placed ROUSSEAU's CAMP near the craggy eastern mountain face exactly because of the hazy daisy nature of Sayid's recollection of the trek, encountering the bridge where they did, Sayid's reaction to it, and just the absence of big jungle trees (and Rousseau being stragetically-minded) told me that ROUSSEAU's CAMP would logically be along a mountain range, a few miles above sea level, between cliffs and crags and whatnot.

also, DESMOND'S YACHT'S trajectory was more informed by what he said in the two-part season finale (traveling north to the fiji islands) and the Island being largely magnetic always attracting DESMOND's compass' NORTH back towards it would mean him travelling along a half-circle towards the southern tip of the Island, to where our LOSTies are. the western trajectory was arbitrary, more out of the Left-to-Right readability than anything scientific (or nautical). and i put the yacht in a cove along the island's east coast because *SPOILER!!* (as far as next episode's previews are concerned) the Others seem to be clueless about where Sayid (et al) managed to comandeer a yacht, meaning Ben (and others) had no idea about DESMOND'S YACHT stashed away somewhere in the Island, and logically, that means that KELVIN (and later DESMOND) docked it where the Others wouldn't be able to see it or find it accidentally (unless of course they look for it).

wow. LOST map geek overload!

[adam!]

re: DESMOND'S YACHT TRAJECTORY, now that i think about it, it'd logically do the NW-W-SW-S route because as DESMOND sailed towards the NORTHEAST (where i believe the FIJI ISLANDS are in relation to the Island (pull out a world atlas and see), he kept the Island SOUTHWEST of the boat.

if the strong magnetic field did attract DESMOND'S COMPASS (and i believe it did), that would mean that the COMPASS ALWAYS POINTED TOWARDS THE ISLAND, FIRST GRADUALLY SOUTHWEST OF THE BOAT, THE NEEDLE MOVING SLOWLY TOWARDS THE EAST WHEN THE BOAT PASSES THE NORTHWEST TIP, AND THEN NORTH AGAIN WHEN THE BOAT REACHES THE SOUTHERN BEACH, which would lead DESMOND to go around in a half-circle WEST of the Island.

[Nilesh]

I live in Switzerland and thus cannot see the episode on the ABC website. This time, even with the proxy, the website managed to keep me out. Anyone outside USA succeded in watching the episode?

I heard the podcast and saw the screencaps... Just wondering... Is it possible that this really isn't an island? but extension of the South American continent? The landscape looks a bit Amazonian and the place is huuuuge. Food for thought? Let me know what you think.

Cheers

[James Wicks]

A couple of comments for you guys

1) Siobhan is pronounced Shiv-orn

2) You discussed the food drops, in the Lost experience Alvar Hanso said that they would continue "in perpetuity" which means forever. Whether that means even after Dharma may be defunct or not, I guess we don't know, but my feeling was that they'd made arrangements for it to happen no matter what.

Great pocast this week, much MUCH better than the Skypecast! :)

James

[Tom Molyneux]

Ok, I have just come up with a thought! (which if you knew me you would know thats not normal)

right so from what i have gathered from watching Lost is that when the Others capture someone they experiment with them, such as Walt, Jack, Kate, Mike and so on.

soooo what the hell happened with Charlie when Ethin took him in season 1??

Why hang Charlie but test and kidnap everyone else they see?

I need answers, i know it sounds silly bt i cant stop thinking about it

[Vaibhav]

Guys,
One absolutely great theory... that the Others/DHARMA/Hanso are actually fighting a natural phenomenon and the phenonmenon is trying to balance itself out by throwing in the castaways.... absolutely brilliant!

Kinda dissapointed with some of the overanalysis here and there... too much "Maybe this or maybe not this"...
Just my own taste, but I'd say if something is based on too many unknowns (which are themselves based on other unknowns) at the time, just mention it for future reference and move along to stuff that can be discussed using known facts...

I realise everything is suspect in Lost so "facts" may turn out to be fake... but i'd say go with the most reasonable /simple theory for an occurence rather than questioning everything!

ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

Just my tastes.. upto u chaps!

[Mark B]

One thing about Sarah leaving Jack for someone else. Which I don't think is central to the Lost story in anyway just a bit of character backstory building material for Jack.

Could it be that she left Jack and went back to the man she was going to marry just before Jack met her ?

Clearly she married Jack not out of love but some kind of misplaced devotion to the man who made her walk again. There is some syndrome name for when this happens but I forget, (like Stockholm syndrome for captives who end up associating with kidnappers -- insert thoughts on Jack and Juliet here), perhaps it's called Nightingale syndrome ? After a few years of living with Jack Sarah realised she didn't love him so left. There may be no-one else involved.

[slink]

Just a quick theory a friend and I came up with before this episode, in discussing the equation and relevance to the show.
One theory we had was that the Valenzetti Equation isn't what is claimed. What reason would they have for using those numbers for the Swan experiment, unless they coincidentally refer to something other than the cores of the equation? It seems a little... Far fetched to me at the moment, at any rate.
But, Dharma got rid of every copy of all the books about the equation, be it Troup's book, or the original copy of the equation which Hanso is said to have. So maybe they are covering up what the equation really is, what the numbers really are, and are instead using their current cover story to make the current initiative members (as seen in the Sri Lanka video) do what they are told, to spread the contageon, to kill people for a 'good cause'. If there's an equation which says they must do this, are they not more likely to?
Just a theory, and hopefully we'll get some idea from the show itself, but there we go.

[slink]

Damn.
That said, I will concede that if the numbers can also affect Hurley in such a profound way, as well as the guy Hurley got them from, they might mean more and thus be part of the Swan experiment as well.
It was just one of my theories at any rate. I need to stop thinking about it now.

[Art_Vandelei]

Mark_B:
I think Sarah did love Jack at some point. As I saw it in the past season, it was him who wasn't sure about his feelings before they got maried and later on he just wasn't taking good care of his wifebecause he was eep focused on being a doctor.

[Mike M.]

I acually like the idea of Jack being a villian. It makes sense. Maybe not a villian, but he would be the one to turn his back on the rest of the Losties. Wasn't there a spoiler about him causing someones death?? Could this be what they mean by the show 'jumping the shark'?

[Nilesh]

I noticed one thing. I don't know if this is important, but looking at the scenes of the plane breaking-up and crashing + the overview of the island, if the front part of the plane crashed towards the North-West (according to the screenshot), which means away from the beach in the North-West, why in the first episode of season 1, did the plane crash towards the beach, or why did they show the plane crashing in the water towards the beach, not away from it.

Hope I am posing the question clearly.

What do you think?

Cheers

[adam!]

@nilesh: that's why i believe the fuselage crashed on the SOUTHERN TIP of the Island (with the tail crashing on the NORTH WEST), with Othersville (and PALA FERRY) along the NORTHERN TIP (that's why our LOSTies haven't discovered the Others' encampment, yet, it being on the direct opposite side of the Island relative to their camp, not to mention being cradled inside a crater), as indicated in the map i drew up and linked... here -> http://static.flickr.com/92/264413070_d3709a3431_b.jpg

[Sarah]

@Mike M.: Yeah, I love the wholel Jack-villain theory too. It seems like it would be one of those huge turnarounds that no one sees coming (even though, obviously, a lot of people have already predicted it.) I've also thought that what if he becomes an Other? Because when I was reading about the character Juliet, producers were saying that it might be a possible love interest for Jack (which makes me think Kate will choose Sawyer, but that's a different story) so I've thought that maybe if and when the Others release Jack, Kate, and Sawyer, Jack will want to stay behind to be with Juliet.

Sarah

[Cihan]

I think another reason why Jack is not underwater is that Juliet seemingly travels from Jack's cell to zap Sawyer with her gun in a forest very easily. So either Jack is not underwater or Juliet can project herself around like Walt (Carrie powers?). But I dont see why she would say they're underwater to Jack though, if they werent.

Also, I agree with the virus reference to the numbers. I had a long-winded theory last season which I cant be bothered to dreg up right now, but I agree with you guys that seeing the numbers in flashbacks is a signifier that they are like a virus. My theory basically stated that the numbers have spread out around the world to lure certain people back to the island in a very convoluted 'Chaos Theory'-like manner which involved first getting everyone to Australia and then onto the same plane, increment by increment. (maybe the reason the numbers bring bad luck/death to people is because they dont fit the criteria and are not needed by the numbers, only the people who ended up on the plane were needed and thus survived the crash.). So in a way, the manner of the plane crash caused by Desmond was accidental and yet full of purpose at the same time, paradox and mystery go well together.

[Matt Lafferty]

@ I Love Sayid
Thanks for your kind comments! I just enjoy the mental workout of sharing my thoughts and reading what everyone else has to say, and the ensuing interaction. It's great how chatty everyone is on here!

[alex]

ciahn, juliet may have told jack that he is underwater so that he thinks he has no chance of escaping.

[Denny]

Great podcast guys!

As far as Henry (Ben) not having anything to do with the tailies being taken i`d shoot that theory down by remembering you when Henry strangled Ana Lucia saying that she`s a murderer as she killed one. Does this not mean the ones killed are the Others?

Any thoughts on that one?

[s0]

I'd say that the food drops are for the other's camp.

[Loren]

I really like the theory that Jack might become a villian. I am tending to connect this theory with the theory that the Others were once the experimentees who have taken over. If the Others truly did rise from lowly experiments to the controllers of the island, it seems very likely that one of their experiments could do the same thing. Although, to make my thoughts more complicated, perhaps it is possible for Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and the rest of the Losties to do this together and eventually become "Others" themselves when some other group of people end up on the island. All in all, I really do like this theory, but i doubt that the show will take this route.

I Love Sayid and Adam,
Just to reinforce the other compliments, awesome awesome job on the maps. I love how intense the Lost analysis is becoming. You all are really stirring the conversations up! Great Job!

I also really love (and actually really agree with) the 'viral numbers' theory. Do you think that the numbers appearing so often in peoples' lives means that the end of the human race is drawing near? Even though only our Losties were 'brought' to the island by the numbers, the numbers could be popping up in everyone else's lives too, just going unnoticed.

Just to go against the flow, maybe the Losties were brought to the island by some higher intelligence to give humanity one last chance. It's possible that even though the numbers represent the end of the world and malice towards the human race, whatever higher being there is doesn't necessarily want this to be the case. I suppose this could also tie into the first theory i gave above in thinking that the Losties will eventually become the Others. In this sense, they would not be malicious Others, but instead, they would have the job of the original DHARMA initiative crew and work to change the numbers.

Well, that's all the thinking I have time for just now! Thanks for the podcast, guys! Great job as always! I'm looking forward to this week's episode and the next podcast!

[chris]

Great podcast. One comment: I don't think that structure with the Hydra logo is a pipe. For one thing, you can't see the bottom half of it, and it appears to me to be the top of a covered walkway like what Kate was made to walk down.

[Juggs]

I seen alot of comments saying Zeke is gay because "Kate is not his type". I just want to throw in the idea that maybe she is not his type becase she is not a "good person". Not sure if this was mentioned before, but I am not reading all 150 comments in the previous section.

[Amy]

"Is it just about me, or is it about my family too?"
-"Your not crying..."
"Oh..I cant cry"
and then the about the experimenting at college...haha nice
LOL! You guys never fail to crack me up!

[ckvendrick]

@ Denny

Shame on you for poking holes in John's theory! j/k

Actually, Ana definitely killed one of Ben's crew (Goodwin). Considering at that point, the Losties only knew one kind of other (the dirty barefoot kind), Ben not including the other other Ana killed (the one with the list) might've tipped his hand that his group of others aren't quite what they seem.

[Mark B]

Regarding the fact Ben wanted lists in three days yet tallies were taken on the first night loop-hole. Could it be that Goodwin was just very good at making the list and did it on the first day ? Those that were taken first were just the "goodest of the good". The next day less obvious good people were taken and so on. Not sure what this says about the air hostess who was taken after 48 days or the Losties that were taken 60 odd days into their 'adventure'.

Of course this being LOST there is always a second explaination .... it may be that the other Others (Oothers ?) took the people on the first night ans second nights .....

I wonder if the Ben Others (Bothers ?) did take the tallies if we'll get to meet any ?

[Denny]

@ ckvendrick

Good point.

I do hope we find out that there are more vicious and "evil" others on the island. Posibly a break-away from the others we know or even widmore others. ;)

Denny

[Symbha]

As usual, great podcast... some thoughts that come to mind as I get ready for this weeks:

- The smoke monster and the plane. I like this theory, for one, magnetism is not a good explanation for an aluminum plane breaking apart (and I don't think this is [lost] on the shows continuity folks. Yes, I'm still crying plane crash!)
- Something definitely happened to Kate. Her wrists were not all cut up and bruised before the breakfast.
- I won't be surprised at all to find out that Sawyer and Kate are only involved as leverage to be used on Jack.
- I tend to think Jack is NOT being held underwater, however, it's possible that he's actually in the air lock. (one that is big enough to transport animals through.
- I don't think Benry was prepared for the incident. I think we were to be shown his quick thinking.
- I'm not sure yet whether or not the Others are the Dharma subjects, or just Dharma evolved. If it's Dharma themselves, they are clearly not thinking of themselves in the same way.
- Were the job postings on the Hanso site, I can't remember them all, simply the open positions for the AWOL Dharma folks, now The Others?
- I sure hope Michael dies slowly.
- The dolphins comment... this one is interesting to me. We've seen them to something pretty amazing with sharks (not easily trained) and this suggests to me that they may be doing things much more complex (nefarius) with dolphins.

I LOVE the numbers fight back theory. What we have learned of the numbers, is that they are expressed by the vanzetti equation, not really that they ARE the equation. I like the idea that the numbers are an expression of the fate of humanity, and nothing can be done to stop it, and what we are seeing is a balancing of the equation. The number curse is my favorite angle of the show so far, so I hope we see more of this.

Just thoughts...

Keep up the excellent work.

[Joni & Jason]

We really enjoyed the podcast again!

The comment about Ben giving Goodwin/Ethan 3 days and the kidnappings happening on the first day was really eye opening. It gaves us lots to think about.

So happy to hear of an official forum for the listeners is in the works!

[Mike in the Box]

As of right now there are 153 comments posted for the previous topic and 45 posted for this topic. I think this really helps us determine the need for a message board with threaded topics. I know it is a pain in the butt and I am sure that there are financial issues (i remember John saying that the redesign would be don't as inexpensively as possible) i for one would not be opposed to ads or even a VIP section that we pay to be a part of. In the past year I have spent countless hours reading through the comments and listening to the podcast. It is just a thought, but maybe something we should explore.

[Art_Vandelei]

Hey,
I've been rewatching season 2 this weekend, and about Jack...
well, he does cry a lot, doesn't he?
You guys are right, he is starting to get really annoying.
I think it would be good for the character to become a bad guy, the only thing that could spice up his participation, besides death

[Ben]

Hi guys,

One thing you talked about in this week's podcast was the possibility of the question mark being the location of the others' camp. But didn't we already see the question mark? When Eko climbed the cliff and saw his brother's plane, i remember seeing the question mark formed by the barren line of land (which he determines has been salted) and the plane. No?

Also, in this week's podcast you mentioned the others' camp kind of looking rudimentary from the wide angle... could these be the "barracks" in Orientation video #5 (the pearl)?

[OldManGout]

I know someone mentioned something about them all being abducted that first night thereby proving that there are two groups of "Others" due to the fact that Goodwin was given 3 days to get the list....but that first night 3 men were abducted (2 Others were killed) and there was no list, not until they grabbed the kids, on day 7, I think, was the list found on the woman Ana killed.

Oh, and I had a thought about the magnetism bringing down an aluminum airplane.....yes, the fuselage is aluminum, of that there is no doubt, but the gauges and engines still contain enough metal to be affected (and shut down) by an EMP. I flew on, and performed a lot of maintenance on helicopters in the Marines and even though they too were made of a lightweight, non-magnetic metal for the skin of the aircraft and frame, if we had been hit by an EMP we would have been dead in the air and dropped like a rock. The EMP would have killed all of the gauges, killed the components feeding fuel to the engines, and, obviously, all of the electrical components running the engines would have been fried (especially the electric starters). So, yes, it is more than possible that an EMP could bring a plane down.....as far as breaking it in half, that could be contributed to wind shear....but I hold to the idea of the smoke monster ripping it in half. I watched that part of the show a few times and the black smoke doesn't really seem to be coming from the engines, it just kind of appears and then the fuselage breaks.....

[OldManGout]

Whoops, I forgot my point on the whole abduction thing....I believe that there are two groups, or more, of Others and that each group has its own agenda - the first night they grabbed those 3 men and it seems like they were trying to grab the muscle of the group (including Eko) - the next time, it was Goodwin's group with the list, it seemed that they were focusing primarily on the women and children. So my point is that, yes, there seem to be more than 1 group of Others and they each have their own and differing agendas.

Speaking of children, were there any in "Othersville"? I didn't see one.....

[OldManGout]

You know, there have been quite a number of "underworld" references thus far.....

Cerebus (mentioned on the hatch blast door) is the guardian of the underworld - could it be the smoke monster?

Hydra (new underwater hatch) has a lair directly above a passageway to the underworld

The Egyptian symbols (that flip over at the end of the countdown in the hatch) mean underworld

So, what is the connection? I know my Greek mythology, but evidently not well enough.

[Joop]

@ Ben
You make a good point. After all, the episode where Lock & Eco find the pearl is called "?"

[jack+sayid=durtyislandluv]

Yeah I'd totally be down with ads to pay for a board, or even better a paypal donation box.

[Jur]

"Jack does cry a lot" I read in one of the posts. Well not only on Lost. Yesterday I saw an episode of Haunted and guess what ??
Jack was crying. A couple of times.

During season 2 episode Maternity Leave we see Ethan with Claire in the Mediacal Station better known as The Staff. I think we can assume that the people in the 'operating room' with this plastic covers over the white clothes are from Othersville. Same place (The Staff) we have seen an Oceanic mobile.

[Cihan]

I really dont believe there are a second more aggressive and nature-orientated group of Others, I really thought we were past this and the show keeps trying to tell everyone there's only one group but all the fans are basically fixated on one creepy shot of dirty legs walking in a jungle. About the three days: Goodwin had three days to do his task, get in, make a list and get out, the kidnappings may have been ordered by Ben at the same time, to work in tandem with Goodwin. Goodwin gets indepth profiles of the tailies to help the Others psychologically torture them later, while the kidnappers kidnap whoever they deem fit their criteria.

This episode established Goodwin is with the Others, therefore everything that happened in Goodwin's arc had to do with the Others from Othersville. His backup probably left for the tailies the same time he did, and began kidnapping people on the first night. We know they dress down when they go into the jungle, Kate finding the fake clothes established this already.

There may be factions in the Others, but I think up till now we've only seen one, and that would be Rousseau's daughter. There's still no conclusive proof that there are a bunch of different Others that go around the jungle creepily without noise. I think the reason we think there are is because we didnt know the Others back in season 2 so we, just like the characters, hyped them up as a great terror.

Just what I'm thinking at the moment anyway.

[OpalMoore]

Newbie to the Lostcasts cast and grateful to have found you all. Spent a couple of weeks getting caught up on the the casts. I can't get over how relentlessly smart and honest you guys remain. Loving a show doesn't mean you can ignore the flaws the threaten to sink it. Love means quite the opposite.

Man, I'll pay into a fund to get your "the numbers are fighting back" theory to be the officially correct one. Don't the Kabbalists believe numbers/glyphs to have indvidual powers? The true name of God/the gods is/are supposedly a number or sequence of numbers? The first scientists were tribal priests who learned to observe and predict natural phenonemon in order to appear "magical" and thereby keep their power and jobs.

On a side note concerning the gods: anyone else notice that all the visionary references link back to the 12 labors of Hercules? The Hydra and Cerebus, of course. But there was also a terrifying boar, a Styngian (black) horse, the foot of a giant (reference to Atlas holding up the world?), a massive, mystic bird (the Hurley bird). All these tasks were given to Hercules by his coward of a cousin, who couldn't get the jobs done himself. The reason Hercules undertook them was to pay pennance for accidently killing his wife and children during a period of insanity brought on by a jealous Hera. Jack's losing his mind? The important aspect here is that Hercules felt he needed to do these things to prove himself good, to forgive himself. Tons of links to the story as a whole via google.

If you guys are right (and how could you not be?) and the numbers themselves are acting as judge and jury over the planet as a whole? The the island may be the place one earns forgiveness. Not an afterlife purgatory, but a real time, deliberately created Dharma intiative to save souls through laborious spiritual tasks.

The music cues: Season two's "Make Your Own Kind of Music" aligns with Orpheus and Eurydice. Season three? You don't get more underworld than going "Downtown."

Last and far from least: thanks for the dead-on assessment of how MBA's and media giants who see only bottom lines keep killing off their gold egg geese.

[Art_Vandelei]

Hey OpalMoore,
Liked the scientist made purgatory thing. Never thought of it.

[Matt Jones]

OpalMoore,

Welcome and thanks for the Herc catch. I don't know what it means, but I really like it.

[OpalMoore]

@Matt: I just catch 'em, I don't explain 'em. That's your job. Hee. Actually, it was the "surprised but prepared" comment in the podcast that got me thinking about how long it would take for even "the numbers" to organize a field trip to the island for those who felt the need to earn forgiveness. Jack's going temporarily insane with jealousy sparked the Herc connection. Jack, Kate, and Sawyer are major players in Losties but they are also the characters in the most pain.

And that @Art is where the scientific experiment in purgatories came from.

So, does that make the Others the good guys or just guys thinking they can play God? I have no idea. There is potential for a lot of subtle storytelling this season. Hope the writers take the bait and run with it. Please writers, run with it.

Thanks for the warm welcome.

[Denny]

Just thought i`d mention that i really this Mattew Fox gae a fantastic performance in the episode. Sure he cries a lot but let`s be honest, that episode just showed us how well he plays the part of Jack and why he`ll be around long after Sawyer and Kate bite the bullit.

~Denny

[I_Love_Sayid]

@adam!
Like I said, your map is terrific and I've been looking at it trying to see how everything fits together.
Allow me to address some of the points you bring up.

I definately agree that the island itself isn't baqua shaped, as Danielle's maps do indicate otherwise.
However, I do think that the baqua on the blast door map gives a representation of where all the people
made structures on the island are in relation to each other. I can't think of any other reason why they
are drawn as such on the blast door map with the inclusion of waterways and topography lines. I hope you
would agree that it's interresting how everything seems to have a place when the blast door map is superimposed
onto Danielle's map. http://www.geocities.com/colwildr/OthersvilleMap.html

Secondly, you say that the Staff is on the east side of the inner valley... Although it does appear they are in a small valley, it doesn't appear to be as big as the one Othersville is in. Since it is possible to have small clearings in a dense jungle, I wouldn't necessarily put it in the inner valley. As far as orientation of the door is concerned, I'll have to leave that to you since I cannot discern an orientation towards either side of the island in that scene.

Thirdly, yOu say that Sayid, Jin & Sun sailed north around the eastern side of the island, saw the the toes, and landed at the fake other's camp near the Pala Ferry... It seems to me that they are definately sailing north as Sayid sais, but around the western side of the island. This makes more sense to me because we see them view the toes over the starboard side of the boat while sailing north. Also, when they dock at the fake others camp and light the signal fire, those at the Pala ferry are far from it. Wherever the Pala ferry is, it's not necessarily near the fake Others camp. Imo, it's not necessarily near Othersville either since it's pretty safe to assume they have ways and means. Perhaps they have underground tunnels (@ OldManGout)or vehicles that bring them here and there easily. We know they're acceptionally strong, maybe they're acceptionally fast. The logical reasons to assume they'd want to be near the ferry don't necessarily apply to them since they: 1. don't need to fish or travel by water way; 2. don't appear to need water trade
route since their supplies are most likely dropped by plane; 3. we know from the Fusies that the water that flows down from the mountains into the valleys is better to drink than sea water.

[I_Love_Sayid]

@John, Robert, and Matt

Great podcast! Thanks so much for saying my name. I think the forum idea is great...especially since there are so many discussions going on at the same time. This place has exploded.

Yay Lost!

[Mariusz Pudzianowski]

You guys rock but your jokes suck!!!! Stop trying to be funny. Oh yeah, bet you can't pronounce my name!

[josh r]

i thought it was pretty obvious that ben and juliette where recently divorced or broke up at least.

[Matt Lafferty]

Ben,
There are plenty of smart folks who would disagree with this, but I saw Eko find a circle, not a question mark. You make reference to him determining it had been salted. He also determined it was a circle. The blast door map suggests that the Pearl, a viewing station (or words to that effect) is on the right hand side, not the center. Lastly, dramatically, the Pearl would be a lousy "center" of things--whereas Othersville is a very cool thing to be at the center. Also, check out the super awesome and amazing map made by I Love Sayid, which shows that the mountains (which form a question mark, says I!) match Danielle's map.

OpalMoore,
Wow, quite a hefty theory about Hercules!! You really may be on to something!

Lastly... put me in the Matt Jones camp that the unthreaded nature of the comments makes for a better comments section. 'Course, I'll still chat my fingers off regardless!

[Lewis Foxx]

just for the record guys SIOBHAN is not pronounced SI-O-BAN its SHA-VAUGHN and its a girls name. Despite this terrible terrible error! great podcast ;)

[MoMo]

I thought this was a great episode to start a season off, though a little less of Jack's crying wouldn't go a miss.

About theories, there are way too many for us to think that the writers may have read a book or seen a film to get clues from, so maybe its totally new, though i love the podcast and i am interested in all the theories that come up. Im jus sayin that it is even possible to come up with something like a "King Kong" theory or something.

You mentioned in an earlier podcast that we should find a way for British people to view LOST the same time you do. I live in Scotland, n i found the site "Peekvid" who has recently added Season 3 episode 1 and a clip for the next episode. Thought you might want to give this a mention on your next podcast.

One more thing, u shuld definately have as your opening or signing out music being "Lost Boys" by the 69 Eyes, since u are the LOST Boys.

Stay LOST!

[Joop]

Matt, keep the jokes coming
"I've been punched in the face by hundreds of women but never went down"
gold

[OpalMoore]

@Matt L: Well, I read "The Third Policeman" a couple weeks ago and have an equally hefty theory that aligns with that novel. Which is a really cool read if you like the idea of "Waiting for Godot" if it were written by Lewis Carroll. And deal with the real life fact that the writer of the book went to Blackrock College, a school run by the Holy Ghost Fathers in Dublin, Ireland. I kid you not.

To me, the creepiest aspect of the premiere night was the first line of the opening summary episode, as read by Phenry soon to be Ben: "Once upon a time there was an island..." Writers don't go to the "Once upon a time" place lightly. As @MoMo points out so eloquently above, the Lost story aligns with all stories--which, as a writer, chills me to the point of shivers. That's a really hard trick to pull off without getting lost yourself. NB producers of Lost: Let us stay lost; you guys find a path and stick to it.

Off island: I find the podcast jokes really funny, too.

[Art_Vandelei]

Hey Guys:
Keep joking, you've earned the right...

[Art_Vandelei]

Hey, about the whole Jack thing,
I think he should've run away with the Italian chick when he had the chance. None of this would've happened, and he would have had one hell of a time...

[sam]

yeah Matt, I know what you mean about the punches thing, but have you ever been punched out in a dolphin tank on a creepy island by some women that looks like you ex-wife and who nprobably will kill you someday? If so, then you my friend have seen it all.

[Art_Vandelei]

Hey, one thought I just had,
Now that we know about Jack suspecting his dad. Can it be relevant that, back in "Two for the road", Jack's old man picked the name Sarah for Ana Lucia? Why do you think that was??

[adam!]

@i love sayid

"However, I do think that the baqua on the blast door map gives a representation of where all the people
made structures on the island are in relation to each other."

yes, i'll concede that it is at least INTERESTING to have the Island bagua-shaped, but i definitely oppose the notion that the HATCH MAP is a LITERAL REPRESENTATION of the HATCHES and their relative distances from each other, and their location in the Island, seeing as to how that dictates that your "?" should be in the upright position, and not lopsided as your map indicates.

although if you squint narrowly enough, you'd probably see that the way i placed the hatches around the island do form a rough bagua shape, with each hatch representing a side of the octagon, instead of the octagon corners that you indicate in yours. and that wasn't even deliberately done to make a bagua shape. it was just trying to work out a credible/possible working map based on information the show gives us.

"Secondly, you say that the Staff is on the east side of the inner valley... Although it does appear they are in a small valley, it doesn't appear to be as big as the one Othersville is in. Since it is possible to have small clearings in a dense jungle, I wouldn't necessarily put it in the inner valley."

i chose to put the STAFF inside the valley because of the relative absence of COCONUT TREES in the location, and being someone who was born, grew up in, and currently live in a tropical Asian country (the Philippines), i know for a fact that coconut trees grow almost mainly along the coasts. that fact, and the orientation of the STAFF hatch door in the episode, seems to me to be evidence that the STAFF is inside the valley, and along the east side of the western mountain range.

"Thirdly, yOu say that Sayid, Jin & Sun sailed north around the eastern side of the island, saw the the toes, and landed at the fake other's camp near the Pala Ferry... It seems to me that they are definately sailing north as Sayid sais, but around the western side of the island."

which is what i indicated in the map.

"The logical reasons to assume they'd want to be near the ferry don't necessarily apply to them since they: 1. don't need to fish or travel by water way; 2. don't appear to need water trade route since their supplies are most likely dropped by plane; 3. we know from the Fusies that the water that flows down from the mountains into the valleys is better to drink than sea water"

there's always waste management, the ocean being a far safer option for a septic tank than the Others actually trying to make one from scratch (those pipes have to go somewhere). and, i don't know, i just don't see any point from the Others actually hiding themselves from the rest of Island as to hide out far from the main ferry (as i assume PALA FERRY is the main ferry), the Island being "hidden from the world" already.

[I_Love_Sayid]

@adam
good call. I always forget that people need to use the bathroom... even t.v. characters...lol. Great debate friend. wish I was in the Philippines...boy is it miserable here in NY, it's given me a terrible cold ;)

[Matt Jones]

Mariusz Pudzianowski,

Our jokes may not be funny, but your name is hilarious.

I keed - I keed!

Lame humor and LOSTcasts go together like Charlie and smack. It’s not something we want to do. We just can’t help ourselves.

[Loren]

Good job sticking up for yourself, Matt!
You guys always have me laughing. That was actually one of the things that first attracted me to LostCasts. In addition to your dedication to smart and insightful analysis of Lost, you always kept it entertaining and comical. So don't change, please!

[Taylor]

Dunno if someone else mentioned this, but in the screencap you guys have of the plane breaking apart...and perhaps it being the doing of the black smoke, is it just me or does it look like the landing gear is down?

[dr penny packer]

UGH! i can't get I Love Sayid's map.. been trying for days... suggestions?

[fogonaropa]

Hey all,

I am a great capoeira enthusiast (brazilian martial art; see www.abada.org). I heard that Rodrigo Santoro, the brazilian actor, is going to do some capoeira in some of the fight scenes.

I am wondering if this is true. I couldn't imagine anything better than merging Rodrigo, capoeira, and lost.

Obrigada!

[I_Love_Sayid]

@dr penny packer
This is the new site for it...
http://www.geocities.com/colwildr/OthersvilleMap.html

[I_Love_Sayid]

happy lost day all!!!

[Art_Vandelei]

Dr. PennyPacker:
Great Nick!! Are we invading from some other show??

[guest]

Am I crazy, or did Ben say "they were down 3 games to none and they won EIGHT straight..."?

[Obi Wan Cass]

Guest- that's correct. The Sox were down three games in the division series, then won four to earn the trip to the world series, and then won the first four games in the world series to get the championship.

Yeah, Bostonites!

[Matt Lafferty]

Classy move by Lost/ABC to show the Sox win from Fox. Watched by (Matthew) Fox. On the TV box. Hhmm... either way, mucho contact with the outside world. Methinks I had argued against that last week, going for the "Jack was drugged and spilled his guts" theory. Ooops.

I'll bite my tongue until the "Get Ready" thread goes up. Off to bed before my brain melts from Lost... namaste!

[Courtney]

It's so hard to wait on the Get Ready Thread!!! I LOVED that they showed the Red Sox clip on LOST!

[emily]

i hope they got written concent from MLB and fox.

[Adam]

Did anyone else notice the faint sound of the smoke monster gurgles in the background right when Ben asks if Jack is going to shake his hand? Was it just me? The monster's sound always sounded like a motorboat engine to me, but I was sure I heard it then. I don't know what that may indicate...maybe the smoke monster is connected to Ben having his feelings hurt ;) but I just thought it was an interesting little drop-in there. Thanks

[OldManGout]

I liked the episode, but will probably have to watchit again since I didn't really catch and revelations.....but I like Jin more and more with each flashback.

[Joop]

The Sawyer as Cool Hand Luke stuff was great.
Question here boss. Shakin it here boss.
Was that Buck who likes to f___ from Kill Bill vol. 1?

[ursinha]

i loved how sun shot trixie from deadwood. i didn't get much info. from this episode...so i am looking forward to the postings. i still think the show is going at a snail's pace, but i haven't given up yet. stay lost!

[Seth]

Sorry, just can't wait for the "Get Ready" thread! I really loved "The Glass Ballerina". I was nervous when the producers said they were going for an "adventure and romance" theme this season, but I actually think they're succeeding on both fronts.

No, we didn't get too many revelations about the big picture, save for a very interesting comment from Benry at the show's end, but we're finally seeing the unfolding of a confrontation that's been building since season one. What we've had so far have been mere skirmishes compared with what's coming up, I think.

The episode had its weak points, as they almost all do, but on the whole I was impressed.Stay LOST!

[Seth]

My one gripe is that I'd really like to have seen a two-hour season premier. We needed one last year with the diverging plot-lines, and that's doubly the case this year. We're going to be well into the season before we catch up with all the characters. This waiting is driving me crazy!

[Mike in the Box]

guys how about a general reaction post on wednesdays. it would be better than people posting to last week's podcast posting. just a thought

[Art_Vandelei]

Hey Joop, good call
He is Buck from Kill Bill. I thought I knew him from somewhere.
Funny thing. When Ben said "And yes, we do have contact with the outside world" I felt like he was speaking directly to us, since our discussions from last week.
Quick answer, wasn't it??

[kitten]

Seth, I think we're not meant to get caught up with all the plotlines quickly this season...it's highly likely it's only covering 16 days on the island. (I posted last week that season 1 was 42 days, and season 2 was 23...so it seems that season 3 would be 16 days.) It seems that the next episode is going to cover the same couple days we've already seen (from Jack/Kate/Sawyer's and Sun/Jin/Sayid's point of view) from yet another perspective. There's no way this 6-week block of episodes is covering the horribly "next two weeks" that Henry/Ben talked about in the premiere. It's just moving too slowly. :)

[JB]

Pretty good episode. I think we see a few more insights into Sawyer as well as Jin. Sure he was a street smart con-man, but the way he confronted the Others and the things that he found my that confrontation, speaks of some deeper training somewhere.
This is way out there, but could it be that Sawyer was working for some other US government agency, and that Kate ended up being another one of his cases and he was there without the Marshall's knowing. He ends up falling for her, so he has to keep up the charade. I do not think that is the case, just throwing it out there.

I think we got some good insight into Jin. I think he knows what Sun did, even though it was evident that Mr. Clean did not tell him. I like him more and more with each episode.

Lastly, as everyone else, that was classic with the Sox. Can't wait until next week.

[musepsycho]

I just saw again the episode where charlie has his vision. The white bird that flies by made me think of the bird that flies up fom Othersville in the big pull-out shot in "A tale of two cities"... Any comments? Has it appeared elswhere? I don´t think that the bird that allegedly cried "Hurley" was white, but I´m not shure... First time poster & new to forums...