LOSTCasts 44: Flashes Before Your Eyes

This podcast focuses on season 3, episode 8 of LOST, Flashes Before Your Eyes. For this Desmond-centric podcast, we talk about Desmond's "flashback", what it means in terms of his ability to see the future, connections to the themes of time travel, and much more. As always, we have plenty of LOST links, and spoilers and info about the next episode.

Download podcast #44 here

Links related to the podcast:
General reactions from The Fuselage
List of LOST easter eggs from this episode

LOST links:
Official LOST video podcast
New "writers rotation" feature
LOSTPedia - Economics of LOST
Blog from LOST book author, J. Wood
LOST Soundboard

We'll be back next week... until then, Stay LOST.

Comments

[lt]

Thanks as always guys

[Justin (AKA Locke Junior)]

Great got it at last, if possible could we have it 1hr earlier?, it's nearly 1 in the morning in the UK

[Lance]

Yeah, it's 1am here, but i'm still gonna listen to it lol.

[bonnix]

Listening to your podcast right now. Just wanted to make a correction about the Heroes reference. Desmond's friend is not the Dr. in the Heroes, but the doctors friend.

[theandrew]

Its monday morning 06.42am I dont mind getting up this early to get the new podcast so i have it to listen to at work.

[RR]

Does the timeline match up for Claire's ex-boyfriend's painting appearing in Widmore's office? We saw his apartment some months before the plane crash on the island... and we saw Widmore's office some years before the crash...? He couldn't of bought it from him then... Or maybe I'm just a fool when it comes to time... and space.. ;)

[Kobe Bryant]

Can anyone explain to me this apparent contradiction that "the oracle/crazy old lady" makes in this episode:

First, she freaks out on Desmond and tells him that "he's not supposed to buy the ring" and how if he buys it "they will all die."

Next, she tries to tell him that it doesn't matter what he does because fate is unchangable (i.e. She didn't warn the guy with the red shoes because he was eventually going to die regardless of anything anyone else does).

......So, why would it matter if Desmond bought the ring or not.....or if she went out of her way to explain that to him and try to pursuade him not to buy it, since it was destiny that he would not marry Penny anyway?

Sure, it makes for a good scene where she can explain the matrix-esk theory to him, but there is a clear gap in the logic that the writers used for that explanation.

Anyone have thoughts on that?

[Phil]

Im hoping that the old woman was infact the island/black smoke and is trying to manipulate Desmond somehow. If that is the case the fact that she goes out of her way to try and convince him that there it is all destiny could mean that free will still does exist.

[Vaibhav]

@Kobe Bryant

I think Mrs. Hawking meant that Desmond was complicating the process unneccessarily.

Though that hardly covers the hole in the logic because for one, does "course correction" imply that things change at all?

and for two, surely it matters if someone gets another day to live.

Creative Licence if you ask me/

[Jon W]

@ Kobe Bryant

Maybe she was first trying to test Desmond on how strong-willed he was by ordering him to do something, once she found out that he was not moving, she then told him his fate was unchangable. As Vaibhav 'complicating the process unneccessarily'.

When I was watching the episode I was wondering the same thing. And I really hope that Mrs Hawking is a part of the island trying to influence Desmond

Great podcasts again guys, first one under 50mins since the first casts ;-)

Jon

[Jon W]

@ Kobe Bryant

Maybe she was first trying to test Desmond on how strong-willed he was by ordering him to do something, once she found out that he was not moving, she then told him his fate was unchangable. As Vaibhav 'complicating the process unneccessarily'.

When I was watching the episode I was wondering the same thing. And I really hope that Mrs Hawking is a part of the island trying to influence Desmond

Great podcasts again guys, first one under 50mins since the first casts ;-)

Jon

[Lance]

Great podcast once again. Lol at abc getting desperate for viewers.

[Joop]

Nice Lovecraft drop. It should be noted that all his protagonists, that tried to change their reality, went stark raving mad. Desmond seems to be headed there.
Does Locke still have faith in the island? He believed the island led him to save Ekos life yet he claims the island killed Eko. Will he continue to be duped, or does the black smoke really have 'beautiful' qualities.

[Jon W]

I think Locke's faith in the Island will fade away just like his faith in the hatch did, Then the island will most probably do something to him or possibly Charlie(kill him) or hopefully Paulo(kill him) to open his eyes again. Or maybe 'Lift up your eyes and look north' will come back into it

Jon

[Mark B]

Sorry I've been away so all of this may have been said already ..... and sorry this is another one of my long rambling posts ....

There are obviously two options for Desmonds 'flashback'

1. Time Travel
The traditional time-travel paradox does my head in and opens up so many loop holes that the entire show could rapidly spiral out of control because of the usual problems -- I really hope LOST does not go down this road and TPTB comes out and says it was not time travel. But what if they take a different stance and say that time travel is possible but no matter what you do certain major events that you are destined to be part of will happen to you no matter what you do. Could Des have in fact somehow gone back in time to the same reality and re-lived his life only to find that he could not change anything significant and he was destined to be on the island pushing the button no matter what. Hence his not marrying Penny again, he knew even if he'd married Penny he would have ended up doing the yacht race anyway to prove to her father he was worthy. This is the essence of what the lady was telling him on the bench, some things are free-will others are destiny. You can fight your destiny with free will but destiny will get you in the end. I think of it like a number of lines running along towards a point but not touching, occasionally they all meet then diverge again. These meeting places are the major events that 'destiny' controls, the routes the lines take to those places are free will.

2. Dream/Island Talking
Why would the island talk to him to imply that time travel was happening ? Could it just be a way for the island to show Des his life would be no different as no matter what he did this is where he'd be now anyway and those bad descisions he made were not his to make anyway ? Those odd "easter eggs" like the painting in Widmores office, the numbers, the pinging of the microwave could be a shout out to the Usual Suspects. In this case the island is using things from the hatch to build the dream around.

Given either Lindeloff or Cuses comment in an earlier official podcast that time travel would never happen on LOST I suspect it's the island talking to Des.

Neither time travel nor the dream explains his future seeing on the island -- unless we believe that Des actually lived/dreamt/saw/was shown his entire life in the time he was unconscious after the implosion and we only saw part of it and Des can't remember the entire 'plot' but is getting to see flashes of the future. But then we get back into the whole time paradox thing. Des saved Charlie from the lightning and so reality changed so how could Des know about the drowning. Then Des later saw him drowning, now he's saved Charlie again and reality changed once more. I assume Des will keep seeing Charlie dying until he eventually does die. The only explanation I can think of is Des must be jumping from reality to reality without realising it as it's instantaneous, once he changes one reality it ceases to exist and a new one takes it's place and he sees the future from his current reality and still sees Charlie dying in some other way -- but like those lines leading to the same destination by jumping from one reality to another will not stop the event happening.

Does that make sense at all ?

[Sobaika]

Random, but what happened to having message boards?

[Cihan]

Am I correct in assuming the scene with Charlie in Desmond's flashback was Charlie pre-Drive Shaft? Or post? Kind of confused still.

[nic]

@ Mark B

surely if Des is jumping through different realities then he would be the only one aware of the alternative realities but this isn't the case as everyone else remembers when the lightning struck (i.e charlie's first death reality).

[I_Love_Sayid....and_Lostcasts]

Tails of the Gold Monkey!!!
I loved that show!!!

[Mark B]

@Cihan

Must have been pre-Driveshaft or Charlie would have said he was in the band when Desmond asked how he could hve known him.

[Sobaika]

@ Cihan

Des broke it off with Penny, joined the military, was dishonorably discharged, did the trip around the world thing, and pushed the button for three years. I'm guessing this ep showed Desmond from around 8-ish years ago, so it looks like it was Charlie pre-Driveshaft. Plus he made the comment about drugs (meaning he hadn't taken any yet) and didn't mention the band at all.

@ The Podcasters

You guys got what the comments section was saying wrong - Desmond's friend WAS in Heroes, he was the doctor's friend.

[Neale in thhe UK]

Was it me, or was that one of the shortest casts ever? This was a massive episode, and i was really looking forward to a huge podcasts, really in depth... it felt like it only scratched the surface...
Roll on the midweek podcasts and a real forum, once its sorted.

Cheers.

[Hasan]

A little random, but i wonder if Karl's last name will turn out to be Marx. It fits in with the whole philosophy/politcal thing, and the eyepatch man aparntly is named Mikhail Bakunin, who was a harsh critic and rival or Marx

[Sobaika]

http://www.eonline.com/gossip/kristin/blog/index.jsp?uuid=98807963-d16d-40af-92dc-4a49c80cc613

Some may have already seen this, but Kristin @ eOnline has an interview with the producers and they say some interesting stuff! Personallhy I'm looking forward to Sayid's episode, especially after what they say aboutot. It's about time to bring back his character!

[Jur]

Time Travel ??? Well look at this plane (after 1.03 seconds of the trailer) in this 1996 film...............

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116253/trailers

[Mark B]

@nic

This is the time paradox and it gets really complicted the more you think about it. Everyone exists in all the realities. Once Des changes the reality that Charlie dies by getting struck by lightning that reality stops existing and the Losties instantly switch to a different reality where Charlie is alive. For a time they were in a reality were Charlie drowns trying to save Claire but Des stopped that too. So they are now in a reality where Charlie dies some way that we (and Des) are yet to know.

Of course it could be argued that all realites continue to exist and we (the viewers) are just seeing the one that Des is changing to keep Charlie alive. In the most complex case every action everyone makes causes a new reality and there are literally billions of realites.

The most commonly used exmaple of the the time paradox is that if you went back in time and killed your grandfather before he met your grandmother you could not exist as one of your parents would not have been born but then how did you go back in time to kill your grandfather. Time travel also opens up other holes (no pun intended) so that Desmonds actions in the past affect the future. What if he had marrried Penny ? Would he have still entered the race ? Would 815 have crashed ? In a sense Des sacrificed himself to his destiny.

This is why I really hope LOST does not use time travel in the conventional way as there is the potential for a huge cop out waiting for us in the final scene of the final episode when it turns out it all just happened in a different reality.

[Lance]

What do you guys think of the "blinking" on the poster easter egg? I've watched it slowly several times and it certainly seems like she's blinking! Spooky

[hasan]

OF Marx, sorry.

[waitingforlost]

@Lance

What blinking poster ?

[sam]

YES!!! I was quoted!!
DRUNK HURLEY!!!!!!

-Sam

[sam]

ohh, and you guys should try another skypecast. I know the last one fell threw, but I'm good w/ that program and could try my best to help you guys out.

STAY LOST!!
-Sam

[paula]

Well guys, there was a definite shout out to LOST fans on Heroes on Monday's epi...

NATHAN to Simone about why they should not go public with their abilities: "... I would take them all to a deserted island in the middle of the ocean and study them."

Hummmm....

[sam]

@ Paula
maybe all the Losties have special powers and the island negates those powers. Ok, I'm guna make a list of powers that the losties would have if they had powers:

Jack: The ability to throw a temper tantrum on command, or the ability to cry in the woods on command

Sawyer: the ability to con anyone, unless a kid is involved

Locke: the ability to creep the crap out of anyone, whether it be with an orange, or with a stollen Jesus stick.

Juliet: the ability to predict when a person will get hit by a bus

Ben: the ability to constantly have bad things happen to him while he's unconcious.

Sayid: the ability to find random stuff that is important, but the importance of that stuff will not be shown until someone else finds it. I SAY RACISM!!!

Hurley: The ability to, well, i'll just say it, kill you w/ his fat (i can say this because I have the same super power)

Charlie: The ability to constantly have shit thrown in his face (drugs, getting over drugs, finding drugs again, getting rid of drugs again, locke beatin the shit (or poo) outa him, learing he's guna die)

Charlie and Hurley: the ability to go from completely drunk to completely sober in the matter of 2 seconds (see the drinking scene w/ hurley, charlie and desmond in 3.8)

Desmond: ability to predict the crappiest future possible

Kate: The ability to run, and run, and run, and run. From the cops, her husband, who was a cop, and now from the others.

Claire: the ability to always have bad things happen to her, when really, they have nothing to do w/ her. (others wanting aaron, not her. her almost getting struck by lightening and then almost drowning, eventhough "fate" is after Charlie)

Nicky/Paulo: the ability to be one of the most talked about characters, while also being able to count their total combined amount of lines on one hand.

Aaron: the ability to make everyone else's life a living hell while only being like 1 1/2 months old. I thought that that was a teenagers job.

Eathan: The ability to creep out!!!

Scott/Steve/all extras: the ability to die on command

Sun: the ability to B.S. in two languages

Jin: the ability to be B.S.'ed in two languages

Michael: the ability to be a shit head

Walt: the ability to actually have an ability that none of us are sure of.

Ana Lucia: the ability of irony. She gets shot while pregnant and the baby dies, but when she has no "baby shield" and gets shot, she dies

Libby: the ability to appear in everyones flashbacks

Boone: the ability to kiss his sister

Shannon: the ability to kiss her brother, her fellow crash survivor, and probably: her mom, dad, dog, cat, goat, bad, friend, friends mom and dad, and maybe friends brother. Ohh yeah, and herself.

Mr. Eko: the ability to be the strongest and most fit, guy, and yet to be killed by smoke.

Rose/Bernard: the ability to be invisible, and still know everything that has happened.

well, there you go, all of the super powers of all of the losties, and a couple of others, and random extras.

Stay LOST,
Sam

[Sphere TL]

Hi, I am fan since season one, I am a Philosopher and I would like to say this:

There is no need for time travel, think about it: the Island, the monster, or whatever, was able to "create" an image of Eko's brother capable of fooling him and all, just to sort of evaluate Mr.Eko. Maybe to see if he is somehow still connected to his bloody past, to see if "the island" could still use him for whatever, without fearing a Mr. Eko killing spree, or whatever.

The same thing could have happen to Desmond. The Island (for lack of a better term, but really I mean the ones behind the monster) are just making an experiment with Desmond to see if he can turn himself on to the events of the Island, to see if he can live a new life in the future (just like in Eko's case). For that, they have to make sure he would choose, given the chance, to not marry Penelope anyway (like he really did).

If we think about it, Desmond was trying to flee the Island in the boat, and when realize he coudn't got drunk, depressed, and when back in the Island, couldn't care less about the losties. Well, somebody in the Island cared about his former button pusher, and gave him an opportunity of redemption (just like in Mr. Eko's case). Mr. Eko failed the test, saw nothing wrong in his past, and was killed. Desmonds seemed to have choosen a different path, and is much more interested on the events of the Islands, even if only to save Charlie's life. If Desmonds despairs, starts wishing again for another life with Penelope, and thinking about ways to get off the Island, he will be killed by the monster (and I would not be surprised that, if he so do it, Penelope-Monster will appear to him again with the question: would you have married me, or do you still think it was a "mistake"?).

So what happened? When Desmond turned the key, he did an act of believing on the Island, of believing that there is something important in the hatch, button pressing, magnetism, whatever. He doesn't know, but the turning key was the signal that he did care. We don't know what the key was supposed to do, but it present to the Island/those behind the monster, an opportunity to reevaluate somebody that was up to then "gone". So while unconscious, the Island/Monster put him in some sort of experience machine (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_Machine), that make him experience vividly again his own past (like they did with Eko's brother), to make him realize what put him in the Island in the first place, and what would have to happen for him to have a different fate. The right conclusion, for the perspective of the Island, is that was his choices were genuine and seemed right and authentic at the time (no, he is not coward, things wouldn't work out with Penelope), and that it is better to leave the past behind and live your fate. More, Desmond would be in the Island anyway, unless you were untrue to oneself. I say this because he can imagine that, even if he decided to stay with Penelope, he would be racing the boat race, and would ended up in the Island anyway!

What do you guys think?

[Sphere TL]

Boy, I really should have reread my post. I thought I could have edited the many spelling errors, punctuations, and others. Sorry, these thoughts just crossed my mind, I couldn't miss the opportunity to share them.

[Tahir]

I heard this on another podcast and thought I'd post it here.

The actress who played Ms Hawkings, Fionnula Flanagan, was in a 2001 film called 'The Others'.

Details - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0230600/

A clue or just a coincidence ?

[Cihan]

Thanks for the Drive Shaft confirmation guys.

@ Sphere TL, I really like your thoughts and am in agreement.

[Lance]

@ waiting for Lost.

Regarding the blinking poster girl I mentioned, if you go to this link you can find out all about it: http://lost-forum.com/showthread.php?t=55400&page=1

There's a gif image in there somewhere showing it and lots of speculation about what it could mean.

[I_Love_Sayid...&_Lostcasts]

hold up....

wasn't it tails of the brass monkey? lol. remember the episode when an anubis-head guy tries to make the chick drink from a river of lava...

maybe i'm thinking of something else. lol

anyway...lost...

@Sphere TL

you know...you've might just be correct on this. it's really the only theory that would be consistant with everything else that's happened on the show. the black holes and particle excelorators and time traveling... probably red herrings... but you never know... and they've been fun subjects to lean about. that's why i love lost so much... it's really a fun educational tool. but, in the end, every weird experience the losties have had on the island has been island-induced, (smoke monster). perhaps desmond is "talking to the island" and the island is telling him, through delusions of time travel, what's to happen...

but, if this is the case then the island (smoke monster) is showing powers it's never shown before (seeing & telling the future) and therefore isn't totally consistant with it's nature so far. remember that all the things it told and/or showed anyone were either from the past or at the present. is this really the same thing? the only future telling i can think of is isaac about claire's baby which can be thought of as just him trying to get her onto flight 815. so i don't know

[Sphere TL]

Again, I think there was nothing fantastic that could only be explained by time traveling. If the Island/whoever controls the monster, can project sophisticated images of Eko’s brother capable of fooling him, why could it not do something similar with Desmond’s past, is particular vivid images and words that maybe Penelope/the Girl in the Jewelry had not say (precisely)?

Desmonds thinks he experience time travel, because that is suggested by the Island, maybe as an useful explanation, otherwise maybe Desmonds would dismiss it all as “just a dream” and the Island does not want that. The Island is evaluating him, and for that to work, the subject must take the question the Island presents as serious questions, like like and all.

@ I love Sayid, the power of "the Island" is huge. I think it could explain the apparent seeing the future is just a suggestion.

What I mean is, with our current technology, is almost impossible to simulate Artificial Intelligence with a computer, Deep Blue was a good step, but is could not even get close to a life like simulation like the one the Island/Monster did with Eko's Brother, of Hurley's friend, or the Horse touched by Kate's character, Jack's father, etc. That is much better than HDTV, or the sort of Hologram-type in the first Star Wars Princess Lea projection. We are not talking about R2-D2 here ;-) If the monster is a machine (as I am assuming) it is a really powerful tool!

So, this machine could have get into Desmonds mind and (1) warn him of an impending danger (like the lightining stroke); Desmond could have even visualize Charlie's death (as Kate visuasualized the horse, and Eko his brother), only that the producers didn't show that to us. But that was all on Desmonds imagination, he was not seing the future, anymore than Kate was with her real horse, or Jack with his Dad, or Hurley with Dave, etc. Of course the lightining had to be "produced", and somehow, they manage to get Claire in trouble (she commented that: wow, I never had problems swimming in that area before, or something to that effect). But all that is to me a small feat next to producing a whole person in the case of David, Jack's father, etc.

So the Island produces the situation of Charlie's dying in Desmonds head, he is "warned" of that and thinks it is a prediction (but is only such a game to make him CARE for the losties and his life on the Island, it gives him a meaning, much like Locke since day one is tottally "into" the Island events - that is why he must be one of their favourites, and he thinks that the monster is beautiful). Then, the Island induces Claire to swim, get her into trouble when out in the ocean (could be anything really), and then, back to Desmond at Eko's funeral, get into his mind and "warns" him of the future. He hears a "voice" telling him to go to save someone at the beach, and bingo, he finds himself as a man capable of saving a pretty girls life (and Charlie's), and so very much important for "the Island"/Monster (i.e. the ones who control the monster).

I am not sure that it all makes sense, but the thing is, don't underestimate the Island's powers! Believe the Island!

Stay lost.

[I_Love_Sayid...&_Lostcasts]

@ Sphere TL

it seems true that the the island/monster is meant to manipulate situations in order to change a persons nature. so your point is that the future events were manipulated by the island to make desmond believe he can see the future. i guess it would do so in order to give him the choice of going with his destiny or insisting on free will. as i understand it, reconciling the seemingly opposing philosophies is what david hume is known for.

hmm... makes sense. you almost have me convinced Sphere TL...i'll have to think about it some more when i get off work.

[I_Love_Sayid...&_Lostcasts]

@ Tahir

"The actress who played Ms Hawkings, Fionnula Flanagan, was in a 2001 film called 'The Others'."

yes...and that movie has been linked to the turn of the screw which was the book hiding the swan orientation video.

and...the movie (my favorite movie of all time) the changeling with george c. scott which also has many connections to the book and to the movie, the others (to the point where some characters even have the same names), stars a ghostly brat in a wheel chair out for telepathic revenge...i won't give it away, but there are many connections to lost.

[Sphere TL]

@ I love Sayid, exactly, I think that somehow Demonds is being manipulated into believing he can see the future, that he experienced time travelling, but that is just a character building/evaluation experiment that the Island is doing on him. A drunk sailor longing for Penelope, is of no use to the Island purposes.

I still don't know how to explain how Desmond could have visualized Locke's speech, and tell Hurley about it without knowing where it came from. How the Island could have produce Locke's speech? Any suggestions?

Still, I don't like the time travelling idea. Seems too much to be introduced at this point on the show.

[dzngrrrl]

Just listening to your podcast and wanted to make a comment about Charlie playing Oasis in the flashback...
In the Season 1 DVDs on the "extras" disc Damon and Carlton talk about how Driveshaft was actually based on Oasis. They say that they were sort of a one-hit wonder band that got a lot of press at first and then just sort of disappeared. Just thought that was clever.

[Jim]

I just posted this on the Aak a Question section on the Lost ABC boards. THought I'd share it here -

Hey as a Die Hard Fan of Lost I personallly love the pace of the show and don't mind waiting for answers.

Some viewers who have ADD are not going to feel the same way however. They may have trouble remembering what Locke was up to two episodes ago or what is the significance of the cable in the water, among other things.

Here is an idea to help deal with this problem. Have you considered running a text "Trivia track" at the bottom of the screen that could be used to remind the audience of what this character was up to when we last saw them or as way to send hints to where the show is going, talk about past easter eggs, etc?

This alternative to an audio commentary track (similar to the pop up balloons used on VH1) was used in some movie DVDs such as the "Pulp Fiction" and "Jackie Brown" special editions I have. This was also used with movies such as "The Deer Hunter" on AMC a couple of years back.

I am not suggesting using this track on the original run on the episode. Rather, it should be used on the replay of an episode that is currently running before the next original episode.

Any thoughts on this idea?

[Mark B]

@Sphere TL

Surely if the island can manipulate Claire into swimming and Desmonmd into thinking he can see the future (and seeing Locke making a speech) it can manipulate Locke into making that self same speech. Problem then is that the island becomes an ominpotent presence and all free will is removed and everything could be the island making people do things. To introduce that would make the rest of the show over complex as you'd be double guessing what is the island at work and what isn't.

I'm not sure anymore but I suspect Desmond may somehow be able to see the future (or a future) but destiny (or if you like the island) has a road map and Charlies death is one of those things that must happen. Everytime Desmond stops Charlie dying the island is finding another way to kill Charlie. Eventually Des will fail and Charlie will die or perhaps Des will die trying to save Charlie.

As I said earlier I think the 'flashback' may have been a jump back to a point in Desmonds life that he saw as a turning point where his life all went wrong and he's always regretted no being brave enough to marry Penny and the "ring lady" was the island (or his subconcious) telling him that he had no choice and his role in the world (or his destiny) was to push the button regardless. He may not have actually travelled back in time but simply relived the time whilst unconcious -- sort of inverse deja vu.

[frankmorris]

That WAS a great speech by Widmore. You gotta love to hate that guy.
I'm not sure how this would affect fate etc., but if I was Desmond, & I had the chance to do it all again. I would have thrown the son of a bitch out the window, drank his whiskey, & counted the millions my bride to be was about to inherit.

BTW I wonder what happened to Tasha?

[Nash]

An interesting theory explaining:
1. How and why Desmond can see into the future
2. What the whole flashback/time travel deeley was about
3. How Desmond, Locke, Eko and Charlie escaped from the hatch

http://www.dharmasecrets.com/forum/index.php/topic,9836.0.html

[Sphere TL]

@ MarkB I think the show would grow much more complex if it introduced time travelling and related time paradoxes.

One can imagine that the Island/Monster was just waiting for an opportunity to get Claire into difficulty. Anything would do, she could very well choose to swim that day, and then the Island got her into trouble. And we can also think that the Island can influence Locke, as it did before many times. There is a difference between influencing and manipulating, and we don't need to think that it can do what it wants with any person at the same degree. There is free will, that is why Eko was killed, exactly by his own choices.

Also Locke is much more sensitive to the Island demands than the average person. And Locke was aways caring for everybody, the Island could predict that, when he got to know about Jack, kate and Sawyer fate, the Island knew Locke would go after him, and then said so to Desmond (how exactly, through vision or voices, we don't know).

I think your theory does not explain all the three predictions Desmond had, plus the "flash back" time travel thing consistently. Just my humble opinion.

[Cihan]

I have no trouble believing Smokey can turn itself into lightning (it turned itself into Yemi!) and somehow manipulate Claire into swimming out to sea (did she give a reason why she was out there? Cant be bothered to read the transcript)

Smokey makes Desmond hallucinate a vision of lightning striking Charlie or Charlie drowning, then subsequently makes it happen, forcing Desmond to save Charlie twice, making him believe in fate, just like it did with Locke and Eko. It really makes the most sense to me, rather than the time travelling malarky.

I like time travel tales, I just dont think it suits Lost and would further give the show's critics more ammo.

[Disappointed]

What's the deal??? Have you guys complete given up on this podcast? What happened to the tagline of "We read the forums, so you don't have to"? Do you guys ever look at the forums for anything other than "Best Lost ever, etc."? I remember when you guys used to be in iTunes top 25 (when I first started listening to the show), but it seems like you guys have mailed it in. I guess the reason I'm so disappointed is that you were the one's who started me on podcasts and now I can barely make it through a show...
Signed,
Disappointed

[wuddlewaura]

Sam,

Your post was HILARIOUS on the special powers of the Losties...it made my day.

[Nash]

According to the Official Lost Podcast, Desmond reliving his flashback was not a dream:

Carlton: I suppose people would wanna know… what does this mean?
Damon: Did it really happen?
Carlton: Yeah, did it really happen?
Damon: Yeah, I think it really happened.
Carlton: I think it did too.
Damon: One of the things we try very rarely on the show is to play something as having been imagined or dreamed. You know I would say in the global sense of things, Desmond back in 1996 actually had that experience. i would venture to guess that in future flashbacks of Desmond’s they would be treated as traditional flashbacks where he doesnt really have any awareness of his destiny but in this particular instance we went outside the box a little.
Carlton: Right, I mean it’s entirely possible that he can have a traditional flashback as well.
Damon: Absolutely, what’s interesting is that there are certain things that happened the way they used to happen that he changed as a result of being in the past, that might sort of resonate over time, like getting hit in the face instead of the bartender, or the fact that the photograph of he and penny got taken the day they broke up. Maybe in another incarnation there were two photographs, that would explain how she got one.

Listen to it here:
http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/podcast?dt=20070220

[Mark B]

So from the transcript Nash supplied from the podcast is it clear he time travelled or not ?

Or is it just the island using his experiences to show him his "worst ever descison" was not his to make anyway and he was destined to be on the island pushing the button.

If Nash has transcribed the podcast correctly I think Des time travelled. The last comment Damon makes "what’s interesting is that there are certain things that happened the way they used to happen that he changed as a result of being in the past" says to me Desmond went back in time.

Of course he must have re-lived that time rather than go back in time or he would have bumped into himself.

Still not sure how he can see the future though ..... more thinking required.

[waitingforlost]

@Dissappointed

How do you know where in itunes ratings the podcast is ?

[sam]

@ wuddlewaura

thats what I'm here for. and I hope that it made your day a good one, because if it made your day a bad one where you went and killed everyone, i'm sorry.

Stay LOST,
Sam

[Joop]

Well, looks like they did it. They 'went outside the box a little'.
Pandora's box is opened & I'm looking forward to them juggling time paradoxes while wrapping up all the loose ends.

[Lorne]

http://imdb.com/name/nm0476094/

Yep
Shishir Kurup.
Both Desmond's friend on Lost and Mohinder's friend on Heroes. At least according to IMDB.

[Cameron]

Having listened to the official podcast just now, I for one am not very happy about the time travel development. It leaves the door wide open to a very, very unsatisfactory ending to the whole series.

[Cihan]

I agree Cameron, I think they've copped out with this, especially on the podcast when they say Desmond may have changed things as a result of him re-living his life, which means they can make inexplicable things happen in the show's present and just say "Oh Desmond caused it when he re-lived his life".

[carol-anne]

I wanted to introduce a thought, a crazy theory; that the smoke monster, Mrs. Hawkins and Eko's brother Yemmi are all the same thing. They are the spacial manifestation of the valanseti equation.

The equation is aparently unchangable and creates a timeline for what will happen to all mankind, but if time is taken away or adjusted from a timeline then it is effectively only non inter connecting events. The events are all still there but what about their order? Time is the orderly experience of events. Mess with the order and time does not exist. The experiment on the island may be to try to tweak the equation. When experimenting, you change one variable at a a time. The variable they may have chosen was time, and they may have lost control of their experiment.

This experiment, may be the big scientific mission the Hanso foundation initiated in order to change a variable of the equation. There seems to be no time on the island. No calendars, no clocks, only the 108 mins to punch in the numbers. They've purposefully locked themselves out or something in.

The people on the island have no definitive ages. They exist outside of time. Ben can turn on the world series game again and again because it is an event. It will happen. He can probably turn on the french revolution as well. They behave as if they've experienced it all already.

Rouseau believes she has been on the island for 15 years; Desmond and Juliet for 3-4 years; Ben, all his life; The Losties for approx 60 days but they are just tripping through events. No time is being experienced or lost. They all have relatively nothing to show for the time they've been on the island. Living areas are either new or old. Things are either broken down or brand new. Appliances, tools, machines, are all from different decades

Punching in the numbers was supposed to give the hanso foundation "time" to find and change the variable, or to find the correct person, the chosen person who can change the equation. Maybe they thought it was Walt, maybe Claire's baby; maybe any number of the children on the island.

On the island, Locke, Mr. Eko, and Desmond have all encountered differing aspects of the equation. Desmond is perhaps the only one who isn't going to be killed by it. He may go mad, but he seems to be becoming the walking manifestation of the equation. The equation may have travelled outside of the island, as well; when Desmond met Jack at the stadium, he told him he will see him in another life, when he initially ran out of the hatch he said the same thing. He is looping through his life and waking up naked outside the imploded hatch may be the very first event. The thing which may be driving Desmond mad maybe normal linear thinking. The events are all happening out of sequence He knows what is going to happen be cause he has already lived it but he can't tell what event may happen next; or, all this maybe just another try at convincing Desmond that he has to stay on the island and push the button, and turn the key. Apparently he hasn't as yet turned the key, if Mrs. Hawkin is correct. She still needs to convince him. This key maybe the key.

Both Mr. Eko and Locke may have tried to change something, a value of the equation perhaps; They both have had multiple experiences with the smoke monster. Yet Mr. Eko may have come closest to affecting the value of the equation, by not repenting to Yemmi. He may have tried to make an event not happen and paid for this with his life. He had repeatedly been asked to repent by the smoke monster but didn't.
Locke, sadly by not punching in the numbers, actually gave the equation what it wanted, time. A sequence of orderly events.

I think the island may be the only place where a value of the equation can be changed. The Hanso Foundation have brought all these people, who have in their way, affected a value or the value that's changeable on the island. They may all have a part in affecting one singular event.

maybe

[Mark B]

Happy LOST Day.

I too don't like the time travel in the last episode. As others have said it opens up too many loop holes and potential for cop outs that would be totally unsatisfying. However, and this is just a trust thing, I don't believe TPTB will use the traditional time travel paradoxes to fix major problems or even minor ones such as the washing machine in the hatch and other production errors. I don't think they will use it as a cop out at the end of the show either. Time travel/time warping may play some part in the overall story arc but it won't be one of those 'BOING', everyone is back at home as if it didn't happen endings. If it is I'll never watch to Cuse/Lindeloff production again.

I think the point of Desmonds time travel is to highlight the destiny/fate/free will issue. Desmonds destiny was to be on the island pushing the button for three years then turning the key by going back in time and trying to change this he found he could not. Destiny is a bigger power than free will. Destiny will always find a way. This if I read it right is the essence of David Humes philosophy. In my opinion Des didn't really try that hard to fight destiny but simply gave in -- he could have married Penny -- perhaps he believed Mrs Hawking (the ring lady) when she said that the universe would simply course correct and he'd end up there anyway and he realised Penny would be better off not married to him when he was stuck on the island. Perhaps he did marry Penny in one reality and that is how both she and he have the photo. In the reality where she has the photo he did the round the world yacht race to prove to her father he was worthy, left the photo with Penny and ended up on the island anyway.

But that would mean in the only off-island real time we've seen Penny would have to be in a different reality to the one the on the island. So which is the right reality ? What will happen if the two realities merge ? Will the Valenzeti equation breakdown when Penny and Des meet on the island and they both have the photo ? Will the reality in which the world ends stop existing ? Or is the photo a production error ?

I'm still not sure how Des sees the future unless he's seen his entire life already but does not know until a certain event triggers the déjà vu. I'm not sure I like the idea he's living his life in a loop that keep restarting with the turning of the key until he makes the right descision, unless that descison is not to marry Penny.

My head hurts.

[Nileblitz]

Is Lost related to "Cube" the movie?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cube_Movie

[Nash]

really cool tool/URL that live watchers can use to chat while the episode is on tonight:
http://go.yaplet.com/?url=http://www.lostcasts.com

[Justin (AKA Locke Junior)]

@JUR!! - WTF OMG!! I saw that trailer for Executive Decision (1996), not only does it have an Oceanic plane, but also has the fraudulent psychic Richard Malkin (Raised by Another) in it. But this might be worth watching because it has some cheesy other folks in it - like Stephen Segal! I love the cheese!

[Jon W]

@ Mark B

Could you just repeat that I missed abit ;-)

[riverfr0zen]

Here's a wild and wacky theory, esp. for all ye time travel naysayers out there.

I don't think it is 'time travel' in the classic sense. Instead I think that when he turned the key, Desmond was freed from the constraints of time and space.

Not that he *travelled* in time and space, understand, but his being literally broke out of the confines of time and space (t&s from now on). Similar to Dr. Manhattan from the Watchmen, he can experience several points in t&s at once - t&s become somewhat *irrelevant* to him. Hence "only fools are enslaved by time and space".

Naturally, such a condition would seem disconcerting to someone who doesn't understand it, which explains Desmond's utter confusion. Also, despite dissolving the barriers of t&s, it may require some special intervention for someone to 'recall' events beyond the point in t&s that they are currently visiting. The turning of the key/explosion of the hatch may have caused at least partial intervention of this kind, allowing Desmond to recall future events.

This brings up the interesting possibility that perhaps *all* the flashbacks we have seen - Jack, Kate Sawyer etc. - are actually points at which those characters may have, with proper intervention, been able to visit /alter in a similar manner to Desmond - except, because of the lack of this intervention, they were completely unaware, and so simply lived things out as they have always been observed.

[Nash]

Here's a similar theory with the twist that the t&s of the entire island was changed when Desmond turned the key. That's why the Others lost their connection to the outside world and how Adam and Eve could be Desmond and Penelope:

http://www.stationzer0.com/lost-easter-eggs/desmond-and-penny-are-adam-and-eve.php
http://www.dharmasecrets.com/forum/index.php/topic,9907.0.html

[Nash]

cool Lost-flavored google search:
http://searchlost.blogspot.com/

[musepsycho]

These theories claim backup from the statement from Cuse that there was a clue in "Not in Portland." The screenshot however is from "Flashes before your eyes." -I´m not completely convinced! Still, it´s strange that the stones (if they are the same) show up in Desmonds apartment.

m

[musepsycho]

...I´m of course talking about the theories in Nash´s links...

[Kathy aka Fangirl]

Has anyone thrown out the idea that because Desmond has gone back in time, that is how Penny knows what to look for to find him? I haven't noticed that mentioned anywhere, but it would explain a lot.

[Mark B]

@Jon W
I would repeat it but I'm in a different reality now and don't recall what I wrote before 8-0

@riverfr0zen
I like the idea that Des was free to roam in t&s during the inident. This is a way to explain the flash forwards or is it ? It would explain one 'seeing Charlie' die but would it explain seeing later ones ? Not sure, don't think so. I don't think the rest of the crews flashbacks are anything but them thinking about their past. In the oficial podcast C&L basically say Desmonds "flashback" is a one off.

[Kathy aka Fangirl]

What Desmond is going through reminds me alot of the first epiosde of Deep Spaqce 9. Sisko encounters a race that doesn't experience time linearly and Sisko must explain to them what past, present and future mean.

A long time ago and I can't remember how I learned this (I think it was from a movie or TV show), but I was told to think of your lifetime as a piece of string stretched out flat and in a straight line. You experience things as you continue following that piece of string). What happened to Desmond is that his piece of string has been scrambled and jumbled into a ball so that when he continues down the piece of string and it touches another part of the same string that he follows that timeline until it touches another part of the string which may put him back on course or it may move him to another piece of the string. He may end up back tracking because of it or may be able to see the future. Regardless, he will experience every part of the string some time possibly more than once while travelling from one end to another. Regardless of what he does or what he can or can't change that piece of string has a linear path. He just may not be able to experience it like that anymore. What changes he may think he is making, may all be a part of the strings path whether he understands that or not.

Did that make any sense? *looks out at confused people* How about this "San Diamas High School Football rules!" *crowd cheers*

Oh and while I am geeking up on you guys - Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. How could you guys not talk about the Dr. Manhattan/ Watchman when talking about Desmond? That was one of the first things that came to mind.

Happy Lost Day!

[Joop]

Happy Lost day :)

[LOSTnlovinit]

Stranger in a Strange Land was a big fat ZERO on that 10-point scale!!!!!! I have never been that disappointed in LOST before!!! I don't even feel like that was an episode used to set up anything, it just plain sucked. It was SO vague, SO beating around the bush and SO predictable! Here's hoping for next week and looking forward to your podcast at least!!

[Sobaika]

I would disagree. Not a crazy mythological episode, but a good, solid episode that was right on vpar with 'Not in Portland.' Good character development. The only thing that bothered me - but only a little - was how many storylines there were. Jack's flashback, Jack and the Others on Alcatraz island, Alex/Karl, Kate and Sawyer, etc. I'll be glad when they finally arrive on the beach so we can consolidate some of the arcs.

[alex's slingshot]

well, to be fair in this week's Official LOST podcast, Lindelof and Cuse said they didn't think the promos were being accurate by advertising the answer to 3 questions and knowing LOST I was pretty sure Jack's tattoos would be the only thing discussed.

Speaking of which what kind of crazy mofo forces someone to give them a tattoo? That was out of character I thought, and a little scary, like some bizarre reverse tattoo rape.

So besides the flashbacks being utterly useless... (that nasty tongue kissing was really really terrible), I did enjoy seeing the kids and Cindy again and loved Jack's reaction to being asked about Ana Lucia.

I really like Juliet and Alex's characters. Was it just me or did it seem like Alex was disappointed Jack didn't let Ben die?

Oh yeah one last thing: that convo between Sawyer and Karl about crying in the woods??? I think shoutout to LOSTCASTS fo sho.

[Dave]

Excellent episode. Not a whole lot on the mythology front, but the story was great. I thought the flashback revealed the darker side of Jack and that may come into play down the road. Just taking a step back and thinking how far this huge plot has come in about 60 days on the island is very impressive.

[Jeffinthe9]

Heres something... with thoughts on the whole.. "cant change the future" thing on Desmond attempting to save Charlie. Is the smoke monster something on the island that plays the role of the self-correcting karma thing? Look at Echo, he was going to die from the polar bear, Loc saved him and screwed with the whole destiny thing, and the smoke monster, which took the form of an animal (looked like a huge ass bear) and killed him.

[sam]

ok, I figured out the ending for LOST, and it's guna b "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" style.

As the remaining lostaways (not sure who will have been killed off by then) are finally found by Penny Widmore, they all feel relieved that they finally get to leave the island. As they are ready to set sail back to the real world (not the crappy show), the cops show up in the coast guard boats and arrest everyone for all of the bad things they have done. Good news, they get to go home, bad news, they have to rot in prision for the rest of their lives.

This will make no sence to you if you have never seen this movie, it's AWSOME!!!!

Stay LOST,
Sam

[Tahir]

A good story telling episode.I've always prefered the action/adventure episodes of Lost but this one sat well with me - I don't think I coulda taken another mind warp epsidoe.
I too was a bit shocked at Jacks' aggressive behavior - we'll have to see how that plays out in the future.

[Tahir]

I forgot to mention - we seriously HAVE to get back to our Lost characters on the main island.I miss them.

[Kathy aka Fangirl]

I normally love Jack backstory, but this one seemed overly lame to me. After two great episodes, this one seemed to be a major let down. Didn't they show stuff exploding in the previews from last week?

Nice to see Diana Scarwid getting more work. She was awesome in Wonderfalls not to mention Mommy Dearest.

[Sphere TL]

So Cindy does not know that Ben made Michael kill Ana Lucia (and Libby, as a collateral damage), and thinks that she is safe with the kids. Jack exploded, because he must have remembered Michaels' confession. Cindy was very naive to believe Ben would tell the whole story. And what kind of people come to "watch" other people in cages? What was the purpose of that? They took all the kids away from one Island to the other (and they appear to have one boat only) just to check Jack out? Why would they do that? Would they not fear Jack telling them that he was suppposes do go home, that Ben promised him that, and ask the kids weather they did not want to go back home, to their parents, friends, toys, PS, etc? If he is so interested in get the others confused, he should tell more to Cindy and the kids, maybe including telling them about the death of Ana Lucia. What are they thinking, they are living in paradise?

I don't get the mark on Juliette. Are there Juliette clones by the way? How difficult would it be to identify Juliette in that little village? Would it be relevant on the outside word? Strange practice, but then again, they let polar bears (former Dharma projects long gone bad) loose on the Island. For what purpose? To scare potential survivors stranded on the Island?

I liked the episode, though, not clear the role of the tatoo though. How would that sheriff speak chinese? Did she really pronounce correctly, or just opened the other's file on Jack?

[Joe Critical]

Headline: "Have the Lostcast Gurus Lost Their Passion For Lost?" Sure seems like it. Of course, maybe the wife/girlfriend factor has won over the weekly guy geek night.

[Joe Critical]

Headline: "Have the Lostcast Gurus Lost Their Passion For Lost?" Sure seems like it. Of course, maybe the wife/girlfriend factor has won over the weekly guy geek night.

[Mark B]

An OK episode made bad by the previous two episodes being so good and the Lost Moments/Promos which gave everything away other than exactly what Jacks tattoos say which was, as Isabella said, kind of ironic. (In the real world do the tattoos really say what Isabella said ?) Wish the publicity people would stop doing those "The Greatest ever LOST episode" type promos.

Isabella was a bit stoic, almost Romulian.

Looks like Jack loves Juliett now he's saved her from execution.

The brand on Juliett was for what purpose exactly ? Assume for identification as a bad Other in the outside world but what was it -- some kind of inverted northern star type symbol ?

What three mysteries ? Jacks tattoos and and and …...

Nothing more to say really.

[Brian]

OK, I was hugely disappointed by this episode. I thought Jack's flashbacks were an excuse to give his new love interest some air time. The tattoo parlor scene was just weird. I mean, who forces someone to give them a tattoo? Who gets forced into GIVING a tattoo? It was just silly. It took up 30-40% of the running time of the show and didn't let us know anything more about Jack. He's impatient, unsympathetic, pathetic, and has a problem with women. Can we please move on?!

Then they introduce this "sheriff" character (that's all we need now...more new characters) who's like The Bride of Dr. Spock in terms of on-air emotion. Maybe she's a robot.

And why does Jack constantly lose his temper for no apparent reason? When you wake up in the morning and see a bunch of people hovering around your new cage (who you presumed dead), ask some frickin questions! Don't scare them away! Use the opportunity to find out what the hell's going on! What an idiot.

Here's what we did find out:
1) The Others "work" on Alcatraz Island and live on the big island. They have back yards, which we already knew
2) Some of the captured people from the crash are still alive
3) Kate loves Jack and not Sawyer

In my opinion, it's not enough. It's certainly not enough to keep me up until 11 on a Weds night. Thank goodness for TiVo.

The show has lost much of its intensity, and the writers' attempts to create intensity by introducing more mystery just muddy the picture to a point where, as a viewer, I'm frustrated. I miss the constant discovery. The previous 2 seasons were filled with discoveries by the Losties regarding where they are, why they are there, and WHO they are. This season just shows them chasing each other around, yelling and screaming with no real opportunity to discover the island or themselves.

People seem to die for no apparent reason. Take Ecko for example: "The island killed him." Well, what the heck does that mean!!?? Why? Why now? It's been 3-4 episodes since we saw what happened to Ecko and not even an attempt has been made at explaining what happened to him.

I'm rambling, but my final thought is that LOST reminds me of that Christmas present you get 3 months after the holiday is over. Yeah, it's a nice new sweater, but Spring is just around the corner and you'll never wear it.

[Jamie]

last week finally got me excited about lost again,
and then this wek ruins it
dull dull dull
nothing happened
il keep watchin but only out of blind loyalty and hope that its interesting
thank goodness for 24

[SMKGrl]

One thing that I'm not sure anyone has brought up yet, and wasn't explained very well in the episode or Official Lost Podcast that would've helped people understand this episode a little better - tattoos in Thailand are a much more spiritual thing than anywhere else. It's why the guys beat up Jack, and why Achura (sp?) was paid so much and was so secretive about what she did. Here's one webpage I found just doing a quick search....

http://www.horizonmuaythai.com/Muay%20Thai/tattoos.html

[David]

Haha, as if you don't watch 24 out of blind loyalty. Oh look the terrorists are attacking again, and Jack is going to pull some crazy impossible stunts to save the world! I think we need to keep in mind that LOST payoffs don't happen in one episode. When season 3 comes out on DVD, I think this episode will fit better into the overall story arc.
And i was just giving you a hard time about 24. I do think it's a pretty good show.

[waitingforlost]

Wellll that was a bit dull wasn't it. I guess no one was very excited as the comments section is almost totally empty.

I think this episode must really have been unimpressive, no easter eggs, no plot twists, nothing but Jacks lame tattoos, a weird brand on Juliet, a new stern Other (Isabel) with wierd hair who appears to be below Ben in the pecking order but some kind of "justice for hire" and a boat not a submarine -- I'd forgotten that speculation. For once the more I think about the epi less I like it. The Thai girl was ok looking but rubbish at acting.

The Losties are really starting to annoy me with their lack of questions. Jack could have got more info out of Cindy and Kate and Sawyer barely started on Karl before letting him go. I mean they know nothing about Othersville and when he mentions backyards they look all puzzled but don’t think to actually ask.

I'm sure it's not the beginning of the end, it was just one bad episode. I'm equally sure the nay-sayers will be out with their knives big time. I'm not sure how the viewing figures are calculated and if people have to watch the entire episode to get counted but I wonder if this will rank as the lowest watched epi ever. Next week better be a top rater again or this really could be not the end, but the start of the end. It's a Hurley-centric episode so hopefully it'll be good, everyone likes Hurley. Not sure about the VW camper van in the promo, that looked kind of stupid but the petrified arm looked interesting.

Personally I'll watch LOST to the bitter end.

Funny how you can go from one extreme to another in a week. Last week everyone was full of the best ever LOST episode now it's the worst. Once again LOST has is a victim of it's own success (and lack of formulaic approach) with fans expecting killer episodes ever week.

[Brian]

Doesn't need to be a killer ep every week, but it needs to be worth staying up late for. i'm probably not staying up intil 11 next week. i'll TiVo it and watch it in the AM.

the ONLY connection/theme i could see from this ep had to do with stars and constellations. Jack's other tat has 5 stars on it, Juliet's brand is a 6 pointed star, Carl and whats-her-face gazed at the stars together....Maybe even the kite was part of the star symbolism. maybe this points to astrological theories? is this some (very) lose tie-in to the Time theme?

someone get on this and educate me, because the writers are doing a horrible job.

[jamie]

@david
to be honest you're right about 24, i often watch episodes in groups as ive been watchin on dvd and online and 1 episode on its own is often quite stale
i think the problem with lost this week was that the story didnt advance at all. there was no real revelation, no real talking points, and the only point of interest(cindy) had been in seen in trailers AGES ago

[David]

I'll second the comment about the previews. They need to stop giving away half the episode. Being surprised with Cindy's reappearance would have been awesome, but alas I had already seen it about 20 times before during commercials. The higher-ups at ABC need to stop sweating over LOST. It still has good ratings and a large fan base.

[Jamie]

its interesting as the week before they gave very little away about the bulk of the episode, admittadly we'd seen most of the on-island activity on previews and'lost moments' but the "time travel" stuff which took up most of the episode and the "charlie youre going to die stuff" came as a suprise
i do get the feeling that the people at the top of ABC are panicing though and feel the need to oversell an episode
lets jsut hope their control sticks to the promos

[Brian]

OK, a quick study at constellations since this ep was about stars to me:

Carl talks about "Ursa Theodoris - The Teddy Bear" when he lands with Sawyer and Kate. In our known constellations, Ursa Major and Ursa Minor are the Big and Little Dippers, respectively. AKA - Big Bear and Little Bear. Big Bear points to the North Star, Polaris. Polaris is at the end of the handle of Little Bear. The relationship of these 2 constellations is a constant rotation, or dance, around each other, around the north pole; and is the basis for our way of navigating the earth latitudinally.

Lore states that Little Bear is playing "keep away" with Polaris; keeping it from Big Bear. Neither constellation fully sets on the horizon.

According to Greek mythology, Big Bear was created by Hera, the wife of Zeus, by transforming Callisto, due to her jealously of his love with a mortal woman. Callisto's own son, Arcas, almost killed Big Bear in the woods with an arrow. To save them both, Zeus transformed Arcas into a bear as well and tossed them into the heavens so they could always be together and watch over one another; or so they chase each other endlessly, avoiding death and sorry.

Source: http://hsci.cas.ou.edu/exhibits/exhibit.php?exbgrp=3&exbid=20&exbpg=116

This relationship brings up a number of other themes in the show: bears, father-son, being lost, death & endless suffering.

Finally, "Theodoris" and "Teddy Bear" must be a reference to Theodore Roosevelt, the 25th president of the United States. (Incidentally, Roosevelt served 2 terms as president, or 8 years - one of the "numbers" in LOST.) One of the stories of how Teddy Bears got their name has to do with a hunting excursion where one of Roosevelt's colleagues caught an injured bear and Roosevelt insisted it be set free; killing it would be "unsportsmanlike."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teddy_bear

[Andrew]

After listening to the podcast last week I was thinking through some stuff regarding time and dimensions, and particularly how beings that exist in a dimensional space 1 dimension more than another, will appear god like in that other space. The classic example of this is in a book called Flatland by someone Abbot, where 2d beings are introduced to 3d space by a sphere. In this book a whole 2 dimensional 'world' exists on the surface of a sphere floating in someones 3d basement (is our island a 3d world floating in someones' 4d space?). This is worth checking out as an n+1 dimensional being may look weird in n dimensional space (perhaps like the black smoke), particularly as we are currently exploring the fact that there may be some dimensional freedom in the time dimension. Perhaps the others are n+1 dimensional and our losties are n dimensional. (no gags intended about acting ability and being 2 dimensional).

[ella]

the road on the map in the car was leading from the swan hatch. if you look in the bottom corner of the map you can see an outline of the layout of the hatch.
map:
http://bp1.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/ReaFJFFdvnI/AAAAAAAAB0c/vp0J49TRmrQ/s1600-h/mapneg.jpg
hatch:
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/6505/mapreal2thumb0yu.png