Get Ready: Catch-22

Tonight, we'll get season 3 episode 17 of LOST, Catch-22. Send us your thoughts by posting them here, sending us an email or leaving an audio comment via our automated audio comment voicemail by calling 206-666-2278. We'll be podcasting this weekend!

Comments

[Mark B]

Interesting interview with Emerson in Houston Chronicle

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ent/tv/4724221.html

[ebonX]

I just posted this on the previous thread, but it makes more sense to post it here (obviously) ...

There is a great teaser article for "Catch-22" from Jeff Jensen at EW.com ...

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20035497,00.html

Ubermensch (Others) vs. Last Man (Losties) comparison ... Great stuff!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cbermensch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Man

Also, this article stole my thunder (but in a good way) ...
I was gonna post about Brian K. Vaughn being a writer for LOST and how his past comic book work relates to LOST, but he did it better than I ever could have explained it.

Stay LOST!!!

[kahan23]

Just a thought about Smokey, and maybe someone else has already thrown out this theory, but....

When Kate and Juliet where about to hide behind the sonic fence, we see smokey come racing out from the jungle, and the cloud splits around the trunk of a tree in the middle of the shot, only to come back together as one mass when approaching the fence. It sees the fence, and then disperses back into the forest, once again splitting as it goes towards the tree. Given that the smoke cloud is seemingly made of many small parts (particles), could it be that it is always present on the island, but in many, many small parts. That way, all the particles could be out scouting all parts of the island, and then when alerted to something going on, call all the other particles to join together. Kind of a Mighty Morphine Power Rangers theory there!

When we hear the receipt printing noise associated with Smokey, maybe that's the particles scouting around the island...but it's so small that you can't see it, just hear it. Then when we see smokey, that's it all the molecules coming together. Just a thought. We always seem to refer to it as one unit, and often see it as one mass, but it's a frickin cloud thing....it can probably break up. That's all....your thoughts?

[jerry yeti]

The Adventure of the Missing Stocking by the Writers of Lost:

http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/spoofs_satire/the_adventure_of_the_missing_stocking.php

[Susan]

Mark B--

Thanks for the awesome link to the Michael Emerson interview. There are definitely some very interesting things mentioned, and I love that some of the cast members are gathering to discuss ideas about the show's mysteries.

[BrianS]

** Also posted on the previous episode thread, but now it belongs here ***

OK, I have read all the posts and I think there are some very good theories here. One thing to note, when women are pregnant, they are encouraged to take vitamins and other supplements to help in fetal development and also aid their immune system. The body natural reduces its willingness to fight impurities because hormones injected into the blood stream via the uterus tell the body, "hey, there's a baby in here, don't kill it!" So, pregnant women as more prone to common colds than non, because of changes in their immune systems.

Now, *IF* the island indeed does something to enhance the immune systems of its inhabitants, and then it would make sense that this increase in hormonal activity would counter the body's natural hormones and potentially harm a fetus. HOWEVER, my question is...Why would this harm the mother?

THEORY: Could it be that something about the island's connection to *new life* (ie - the fetus) reacts in a way negatively toward the mother, enhancing the baby's naturally protective hormones to the point where the mother is left helpless and fighting her own body?

Keep in mind that there was no indication that mothers were infertile, only that they died as a result of child birth. We don't know when during the birthing process their lives were in danger. This hormonal imbalance could appear after the new life (baby) has been born.

Now, I don't think Claire was affected this way. Claire did not conceive on the island and therefore Aaron has no connection to the island, and therefore not a direct threat to Claire. Claire's illness was planted by Ethan, and acted upon by Ben as a "trust mechanism." Ben never intended to hurt Claire or the baby, but only use them as a set up for later events. A safety net/backup plan/etc...

Now, we KNOW from the flashbacks, that Sun was not pregnant with Jin's baby before getting on flight 815. She was infertile. Her infertility was "cured" as a result of being on the island, therefore, she must have conceived ON THE ISLAND... (Although sperm can survive inside a woman for a few days following intercourse. So, she could have had intercourse prior to flight 815, landed on the island, been cured, and conceived...in a matter of days.) But let's just say she conceived on the island, this means her life is in danger...But when? While carrying? During birth? After birth? If so, how long after?

I think that the "trick" the writers are pulling has less to do with Desmond, Claire, and Aaron and more to do with Sun.

Looking forward to tonight.

(I hope the technical conception talk is acceptable to viewers of the site. I tried to keep it Clinical!)

[BrianS]

Michael Emerson is 52! Never would have guessed that.

[ebonX]

@Brian S. - Great theory ... Very well thought out! Just got a couple thoughts to add ...

The infertility issue on the Island is even more vague than you have stated ... In addition to not knowing whether people on the Island are sterile, we do not even know how long they have been in this state (were people always sterile on the Island or just Post-Incident) ... Maybe no one was ever able to even conceive a child until Juliet's arrival?!?

Also, it was Jin who was sterile (pre-Island), not Sun ... (Quote from Lostpedia)

Their marriage was placed under further strain when the couple found that they were having trouble conceiving. They sought the advice of a fertility doctor, who told them that Sun is unable to have a child; however, Dr. Kim later revealed to Sun that it's really Jin who is infertile. ("The Whole Truth")

Obviously, this will be the primary mystery of Ep.18 (D.O.C. = "Date of Conception") and will answer the questions you raised in your theory ... If the baby daddy in Jae, then Sun is in the same boat as Claire (no worries ...), but if Jin is the father, then at least we know people are not sterile on the Island (since people are able to conceive a child on the Island).

My personal speculation is that it will be the latter ... Jin/Sun baby being conceived on the Island opens an entirely new "rabbit hole" for TPTB to explore.

Stay LOST!

[avdj]

I am assuming that the question mark of the blast door map is now what we know as Others' Village. The circle around it must've been the sound barrier. I keep on wondering how the heck everybody can get to the submarine so quickly. I guess it is one of those things...

Also, I think Carl is Alex's twin.

Also, Jacob might be a woman.

Also, there is a lower basement level in the Pearl station.

Also, the lady from Desmond's ring store is a fellow time traveler, but she travels backward in time, while he travels forward.

[Mark B]

As someone else says above --- It was Jin that was infertile not Sun. She covered it up blaming herself so he'd not look less of a man, which was pretty important to him given his history of being a fishermans son married to the great Mr Paiks daughter.

[jg]

Subject: Infertility

I agree the problem is vague. But, I believe that Juliet was brought to the island specifically for infertility problems.

• She saw the CT scan of a 28 yr old woman with the 75 yr old uterus.
• The dialogue has been referring to “bring life to where it shouldn’t be”. I think this is a more direct line toward straight infertility problems, rather than come save lives of pregnant women so then babies can be born.
• She says the mother’s bodies attack the fetus as a foreign body (which it is).This would kill the fetus when it is small.

Therefore, I think Juliet’s treatment keeps the fetus alive for a while then the immunosuppression provided by Juliet kills the mother.

Subject: Technical analysis
Don’t do it.

Subject: Cerberus
(As we bide our time...)
As I mentioned , I think Cerberus is made of dirt. He is named after the mythical 3 headed dog. My dog eats and rolls in various things that I don't like. Therefore, I think Cerberus is a dirty filthy monster. And...who is saying to it...hey...HEY...Git over here! Hmmmm......

[my-2-cents]

*** SPOILERY SPECULATION ***

Based on various spoilers & clues, I predict the following:

(1) Naomi is Portugese. (Catch-22 book in Portugese)

(2) Ben knows Naomi; she's a mole sent by Ben to misdirect the Losties.
http://www.thetailsection.com/Image/double-shot-egg.jpg

(3) Naomi will announce that rescue ships are in the area looking for Flight 815 survivors.
http://www.buddytv.com/articles/lost/lost-317-catch-22-preview-5821.aspx

(4) She will lead them to believe that the underwater cable must be re-connected as a beacon to signal the island's location to outside rescuers.
http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/2007/04/catch-22-sneak-peek-1.html

(5) Pure unfounded speculation: Ben will use the newly reconnected underwater cable as part of a grander power play.

*** END OF SPOILERY SPECULATION ***

Doc Waxman

[atomicned]

Can I be the first to say that the photo on the desk of the monk showed the woman from the jewelry shop that Desmond met later in life?

[rok]

okay, someone NEEDS to get a screencapture of the one frame that showed the head monk's desk and the photo that was on it. it had two faces, and even in just two frames, i could tell they were photoshopped in.

i will bet you dollars to donuts that the white-haired woman in that photo, alongside the head monk, is the ring store owner from desmond's flashback-within-a-flashback.

[rok]

okay, you and i posted at the EXACT SAME TIME! :-D

[alex's slingshot]

I vaguely remember an official LOST podcast, or maybe it was some other interview D&C did where they talked about another love interest for Jack being some woman on the island who is neither a Lostie nor an Other. Originally I thought they were just throwing us off the scent of Juliet, but after tonight's episode... is this who they were talking about? I don't recognize who she is from anyone's flashbacks or anything, but it seems kind of ridiculous to introduced a 5th person into the tired love polygon, so maybe this is something different. Just wondering what other people thought.

Also, why did she say "desmond" as if she knew who he was?

[biolite]

Lost just started for me but being the comic nerd I had to point out that The Flash can, in theory, run at the speed of light (but he'll "die" if he does it). He always seems to beat superman in those races. As far as I know Supes can't quite match The Flash in speed. And yes, the Flash can vibrate through things, which is cool too.

Anyway, off topic, but I had to mention ;)

~Biolite

[Edgar]

Not sure why going camping was such a compelling idea to Desmond's recruits. Aren't they "camping" every day since they crashed?

[alex's slingshot]

Scratch my last question. I guess she could've been sent by Penny which is why she had a that picture with her to identify him or whatever

[idjk]

@avdj

Producer's confirmed the center of the map was the Pearl.

On the other hand, I am never reading spoilers again. Although that flashback convo between Desmond and Penny was a treat :)

[alex's slingshot]

@ edgar

about the camping... yeah that's exactly what i thought. maybe Jin just wanted to bond more and make friends since the language barrier puts him on the outskirts most of the time.

gotta say though, the scene were jin tells a ghost story: AWESOME

[Tahir]

A slow but good episode.
Lots of stuff for the screencapers and bible readers.

It was nice to see Ms Hawkin again - wife(?) of a monk.

I can't say I liked the whole Jack,Juliet,Sawyer,Kate thing.

[BrianS]

OK, I see where I was wrong about Sun being infertile, but my point still stands. If *JIN* was cured of infertility by the island when they crashed, then Sun would have conceived ON THE ISLAND. And the preview to next week definitely points to her coming to a crossroads about the baby.

As for the new character, it stands to reason that she was sent by Penny to find Desmond. After all, she got the scientists' call at the end of S2 when the hatch imploded via the magnetic field. So, she knew where the island was geographically.

My conundrum is thus: If she sent someone in a helicopter to the island...It couldn't be that far off-shore, unless the chopper left from an oil rig or aircraft carrier. I don't think 1 person choppers have a big range. Also, if she had just traveled to the island in a few days, why'd the sat phone break? Do they use Motorola batteries or something????

Finally, what's the story behind the book?

[Edgar]

How many copies of that picture are there? In Desmond's time travel, which I assume paralleled his first time through, he breaks up with her right after it was taken. As far as we know, there was only one photo taken, but Penny has a copy on her night stand too. How?

[BrianS]

Penny has the resources to get another photo and give it to the paratrooper lady to find Des.

[Mike in the Box]

Subject overall reaction to this episode:

Bored, completely uninterested.
This is the first episode that I actually considered watching something else...including the sun/jin episodes (which i typically find incredibly boring).

The only redeeming factor was "flashed" charlie getting shot through the throat with an arrow...too bad desmond couldn't let that happen.

Now he will believe that allowing charlie to live caused this new woman to be there instead of penny.

although i am not a fan of sun/jin i hope next week can make up for this week's

[Jonny]

LOOK HERE!!

Hey did anyone catch the picture on the monks desk? it was a pic of him and the women we saw in Desmonds last episode. the woman in the jewlery shop who told desmond his fate or w.e i forgot.. but still i think that the monk and her worked together to bring them together and thats why urged desmond to marry her.

-Jonny-

[Matthew K]

not bad..not bad. could've been a better episode. but nice tension with future charlie dying in the first 3 minutes.
anyways...lets start with the title, "Catch-22". Didn't get to read it in high school but brief synopsis is, the story follows AirForce men from WWII who are based on an island off the coast of Italy. The story or one event is told from different viewpoints, so the reader learns more about the event from each character. Yet the story is told as if the reader already knows about the event. So that is similar to not this episode but the show in a nutshell. except we know nothing haha.
but we did see the book "Catch-22" in the parachuter's backbag. but it was called "Elgan-22". does anyone know what language this is? Maybe it will give us a clue on the background on the sanjaya-like stranger.
moving on from the book, was anyone else confused by the helicopter scene? was it the helicopter that fell in the ocean? when did we ever see the parachutee go in the jungle? at first i thought the person landed in the ocean? or was that just me?
anyways stay LOST.

[Mindriot]

Pretty good episode. Anything with Desmond is a treat, he's the most compelling character on Lost. Glad Charlie is still around too - he's a cool cat.

You know, I thought for sure the parachuter was going to be a time traveling Desmond or something crazy like that.

[idjk]

@ Matthew

The book was Ardil-22. It is portugese, a logical extension considering the two workers monitoring electro-magnetic activity at the end of season 2 for penny were portugese.

They observed the blinking red light on the parachutist go into the mountain region. They observed the helicopter going into the ocean.

[idjk]

but, @ mike

i agree. a very boring episode. on par with left behind.

[Lorne]

Dear writers of Lost,
I hate you so much right now. I thought it was a very cool ep, and then you have to go and end it on a cliffhanger that will probably be ignored for 3 eps (like Locke's father).
Next season, I'll ignore the show and watch the DVDs instead so that I can survive the suspense...

[Dylan]

Why Smokey is Cerberus:

Someone above mentioned that Smokey split into parts as it approached the fence. It split into three parts, I believe. Cerberus is the three-headed dog that guards Hades. Perhaps the ability of Smokey to act as three distinct things is why it was named Cerberus.

Credit for this theory has to go to my wife. Or whoever on another forum somewhere put it up first.

[Silkbug]

I personally think that it was a bloody good episode..I love Desmond ones. For some reason I believe that the woman who came from the helicopter is Desmond's first fiance--the one he dumped before the wedding day. Can it be??? We don't know that story yet. And also--Did anyone also feel like the first time when Penny and Des met was kinda weird? How Penny acted? I thought there may be more under that coincidence story. I think she may be the part of a bigger plan, or maybe I'm just getting too crazy with all the scenarios going on!

[Radzinsky]

@ biolite

The Flash would win ;)

@ Dylan

You're a bit behind on that one, mate

@ Everyone talking about the picture

Here's my first reaction CRAAAAAAZY ASS THEORY:

The monk and the elderly woman who sold Desmond the ring (or actually who didn't sell Desmond the ring) exist outside of time. Who knows, maybe they're from a race or legion of time-watchers, some odd cadre of guardians whose purpose is to guide the timeline, etc. Desmond has a "purpose" as the head monk said several times -- it's been referenced elsewhere as well. He has to push the button, maybe he has to do something else?

Maybe... (and let's get a little crazier here...) maybe they know Jacob? Maybe Jacob is unstuck in time as well? And that's the source of his odd power, the reason why everyone has instant faith in him? Because of some odd abilities he has by virtue of the fact that he is either unstuck in time or (gasp!) a rogue member of this group of timewatchers that are hounding Desmond... maybe Desmond's purpose is to confront and defeat Jacob? Or at least address a problem that Jacob creates somehow?

We do know that Jacob seems sort of timeless... Ben has apparently known him his whole life... and Jacob seems to be the force that holds the Others together... maybe he has the same sort of time travel immortality that some of these time watchers have? (And now I know I'm just theorizing off the map here...)

While I'm at it, here's another doozy for you:

THE ISLAND IS SMACK IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SOUTH POLE -- a la the Savage Land. Can only get there in a submarine? How else do you get UNDER THE ICE, hmm? Strange electromagnetic energy that creates odd climate effects? Chew on that for a while...

(I'm sure it's wrong. But it's late, I'm going to bed and I'm being stupid and provocative).

GREAT episode tonight. Hopefully more to say tomorrow.

~Radzinsky

[Sawyer's right hook]

Ok, recap of this episode...more mysteries, yet no resolution to old ones. How long are they going to keep piling on the un-resolved? Every time you think they are starting to make reveals, or that atleast the losties are beginning to make some headway into what the hell's going on, they throw more crap on top. yet another person that needs to be investigated, doubted, trusted, then doubted again. This is not suspense, its tiresome and lame writing. How about the losties making progress without big reveals but some good content on the smaller but crucial information? I'm tired of this, this is nearly un-watchable. The whole episode could have really take about 5 minutes, everything else was fluff.

[idjk]

Desmond used to be one of my favorite characters. Then he had that absolutely ridiculous lightning bolt incident that so paled in comparison to the drama of the season 2 finale that I actually laughed out loud.

Locke remains one of the few characters not absolutely retarded by poor writing. Let's hope we'll be getting back to him soon.

[kahan23]

RE some of the religious stuff in the episode:

So just a few notes...Mount Moriah is, as they say in the episode, where Abraham took Isaac to be sacrificed, and then where Abraham made the agreement to have the Israelites follow God's rules, and become his people (Yeah Sunday School) In our modern times, though, the site that is believed to be Mt Moriah is the site of all three Abrahamic religions major holy sites (Mind you, the third holiest site for Islam, not the holiest).

So, as far as I know, it is the site of Judaisms holy temple (now in ruins since the year 70), and it's where you see Jews pray at the "Western Wall" (sometimes called the Wailing Wall, and it's the exposed portion of the old temple's protective outer wall)

It is also the site of the Dome of the Rock, that big gold domed mosque you see in all the photos of the old city of Jerusalem. This site is where Islam believes the prophet Mohamed rose to heaven, conferred with Moses, and then returned to Earth with the obligatory Islamic prayers.

Only a few steps from these holy sites is the Church of the holy Sepulcher. From Wiki: "The ground on which the church rests is venerated by most Christians as Golgotha[1], the Hill of Calvary, where the New Testament describes that Jesus was crucified[2]. It also is said to contain the place where Jesus was reportedly buried (the sepulchre)" This church has a big stone slab where it is believed Jesus's body was cleansed once taken off the cross, and the cave where his body was to have been buried.

I've always found it interesting that all three major religions (well, at least the ones descending from Abraham) all had their holiest sites right by each other, and that some of their leading figures all roamed that land.

Anyway, I wanted to post this just to fill in some info. I know the writers wrote this to bring in the Abraham/Isaac story, but I'm thinking there's more. Two last things:

1) Abraham's son was Isaac. And Isaac's son was...everybody together now....JACOB! very good

2) Desmond's ex-fiance's name was Ruth...another biblical name. The Book of Ruth is one of the shortest books in the Bible...and quite frankly I still am confused as to the point of the stories therein after reading Wikipedia...but, here are some major things from it. Ruth was a widow...the Book of Ruth is known for the signifigance of the names used throughout the story (Lost, anyone?) Finally, Ruth is revealed to be the Great Grandmother of King David (considered Israel's greatest King). Oh, and what is Desmond's middle name...yep, David. So maybe Des is not just a parallel to David Hume, but also he may be the King of the Island.

That's all for religion corner....hope this was a bit interesting!

[kahan23]

Interesting that the monk told Des that this wasn't his destiny...and that the monk knows the watch-store lady. So I am assuming that both of them can see the future like Des.

[kahan23]

Sorry for the multiple posts.

The actress who played (plays?) Nikki was credited on imdb.com for being in this episode. Was she anywhere in here, and I missed it? Maybe she was edited out do to fan satisfaction in her death, or maybe she was in there, subtly, as an Eater egg of some type...I guess it could also be a red hearing by the production team. She wasn't listed as being in any episodes between Expose and Catch-22, so I was looking forward to seeing her crawl out the sand this episode...yet no sandy Nikki. Any thoughts?

[idjk]

Also, Abraham's wife is Sarah.

She was infertile until age 90 when God gave her the gift of childbirth.

She gave birth to a son named Isaac.

You'll remember Jack's ex-wife's name is Sarah.

[Lorne]

I think we need the caller from earlier this season with all the religious references to be a co-host this week :)

[Mke Brenner]

Great episode!! Classic Lost opening
Two things: 1)Desmond's catch-22 was that he couldn't get penny on the island without letting charlie die and if he saves charlie, penny doesn't show.
2) The real question is if Desmond let Charlie die, would the person in the tree be Penny?

[badger_moldy]

I am going to say that I enjoyed this episode. It started out amazing with the death of "vision Charlie" and the cliffhanger ending made me excited for the weeks leading up to the finale. Some extrapolations/thoughts on tonight's episode:

Among other books, I had read Catch-22 over my spring break (wisdom teeth, blech). What struck a chord with me with regard to tonight's episode were the many thematic elements shared by the book and the episode. The Lostcasters gave a brief synopsis of the plot in last week's podcast, basically it's a book set during WWII about a bomber squadron...and the protagonist Yossarian doesn't want to fly any more missions. He needs a certain amount of missions to be rotated back to the States, but the wing commander keeps raising the amount of missions. Yossarian feigns insanity and illness to avoid flying.

"Catch-22" from the book:

"There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to."

It's a no-win situation.

Now on to the episode...Desmond is caught in a bind. He can let Charlie die to save Penny, or he can save Charlie and risk losing Penny. This is his personal Catch-22. We see through his flashbacks and through the commentary of the head monk that perhaps Desmond is not running away from things, but instead running towards a goal/his destiny. What is interesting to me is that he is able to "change the picture on the box" eo ipso change his destiny. Does Desmond know for a fact that Penny is what he is running to? Or is she just another stepping stone along the way?

Kate also must choose between Jack and Sawyer, knowing that whomever she chooses will hurt the feelings of the other. I'm not so sure about how genuine Juliet's feelings for Jack are. It was nice to see Jack and Sawyer at the ping-pong table. The hardship that the Lostaways are going through are really bringing them together. Remember your Nietzsche, "Whatever does not destroy me, makes me stronger". The last few episodes of this season will be incredible, and I'm already looking forward to season 4.

Sorry for the novella! badger_moldy

[jeffinthe9]

The pic in the monks office, was a picture and a badly "graphiclly added" picture of the time travler lady that didnt sell Desmond the ring. Very clear with pause on Tivo that its her.

[jeffinthe9]

*Ardil-22 is portuguese for "Catch-22", a clue? whats with the Brazilians/portuguese?
*Did anyone else think the parachuter was Sanjaya from American Idol? "you're off the show, welcome to the island" haha

[Nash]

Picture of Desmond's mystery woman:
http://www.twogianthamsters.com/2007/04/desmond-mystery-woman.html

[Mark B]

Well I only kind of liked that episode nowhere near as good as the previous two or three but then we were due a 'bad' one. In hindsight I think it was the spoilers that killed it for me. I must try to stay spoiler free for the next four weeks leading up to the finale. I may have missed something there were lots of biblical references which I'm prretty poor at catching.

The main 'twist' of the epi was given away as I knew it was not Penny in the suit. However as someone else pointed out it's a timeline issue again and had Des let Charlie die would it have been Penny not this new character in the suit ? Personally I think not and it was just that Des's flashes of Penny were confusing him. He 'saw' the Portugese version of Catch-22 and that should have been a give away that this was not Penny. Unless of course he had already changed the future in his flash forwards because his flash forwards knew he'd not be able to let Charlie die. This is why timeline issues should never be used -- they open up too many potential loopholes.

So yet another new character to wonder about. Obvious answers are that she has been sent by Penny to find Des and the helicopter was bought down by some island defence system -- hang on though 815 was bought down by the system failure when Des did not enter the numbers so is there a second defence system ? What did bring the copter down ?

We learnt that Des ran away from a marriage (one that had involved 6 years of dating) to become a 'brotha' and then he left that when his past caught up with him. Also everyone and his dog noticed Mrs Hawking in the really really bad photoshop picture with the Father. Why was it so badly done ? To make us all notice or for some other bigger reason ? Anyhow clearly forces are at work and there is some plan to get Desmond to go to the island. First we have the Father firing Des and then we have Mrs Hawking telling him not to marry Penny. Next up getting drummed out of the army. We also saw how Des and Penny met which was nice -- up until this point I was doubting this as a true flashback the sight of Mrs Hawking in the photo just made that seem more likely. If the Father knew about the "bigger purpose" for Des why let him join the abbey or meet Penny in the first place ? Unless of course his destiny was to meet Penny.

Also did anyone get a screen cap of the cross around the Fathers neck. I thought it was more of a plus sign than a traditional Christian style cross. Anything in that ?

Meanwhile on island we learnt Kate is jealous of Juliet and still likes Jack. Sawyer doesn't want to be used for sex unless he knows that he's being used for sex then it'd fine. Jack and Sawyer are both pretty good at ping-pong. Jack and Juliet are becoming fast friends. Juliet can use a hammer. Jin can tell scary stories.

[Karen]

a good epi.. saw an easter egg - desk of monk talking to desmond when he was leaving. there is a photo graph of the monk and the woman desmond saw at the jewerly store!

[elle]

Subject: Isaac
Everyone is so focused on the lady in the photo with the monk. Has no one else realized that the monk is the same guy who played Isaac of Uluru in "S.O.S."?!?! I'm sorry if this has been said before, but I just thought I'd put it out there. And, of course, biblically - Isaac is the father of Jacob.

[elle]

Never MIND! I suck - that actor that played the monk is Andrew Connolly. I jumped the gun. Sorry - ignore what I just said... :-)

[Radzinsky]

@ karen, Jeffinthe9, etc.

Let's everybody get PAST the fact that the old-lady ring-seller was in the desk photo with the monk. If you're reading these posts, you probably noticed it already, so no sense announcing the connection again.

Let's instead focus on what that connection MEANS. For now, let's call it:

** DESMOND'S TIME GUARDIANS **

I hypothesized late last night (and I think irrationally), that the monk and the old lady are some sort of time continuum guardians -- people who walk outside of time, as Desmond does -- and they exist to manage events, make sure everything goes according to plan.

Who's plan? We obviously don't know. But we now have several references to Desmond's role in events -- the old lady asserts that it's Desmond's greatest task to go to the Island and press the button for three years, and the monk now asserts that Desmond can't stay in the monastery as his life will take a different direction. Maybe Des' purpose isn't just to push the button, but it was also to turn the key? And maybe he has an even greater destiny in store as he continues on the Island? Perhaps his ultimate goal is to confront someone else who likely has strange abilities named Jacob?

Even if my semi-retarded time guardian theory is waaaaay off, I think it's undeniable that there are individuals guiding Desmond who have a very unique relationship to time and the way time passes. Perhaps they are simply others who can see the future.

@ elle

Not sure that the monk was also Issac of Uluru? Can someone confirm that? I sort of doubt it.

@ Sawyer's Right Hook

I completely disagree that this episode didn't answer any questions. If you couldn't pick out more information from this episode, you're just not making the right connections.

The helicopter pilot falling out of the sky tells us TONS about the relationship of the Island to the rest of the world:

** HELICOPTERS FROM HEAVEN **

(1) The arctic listening station definitely picked up on signals from the Island, particularly when Des pushed the button. We now know that the Island is in the same "world" as we are and that it's not some alternate dimension silliness, etc.
(2) We know that the people at the listening post, and the helicopter pilot, were speaking Portuguese
(3) We know that Penny, and likely a number of other people working for her, know the location of the Island -- that's HUGE
(4) We know that the Island can be reached by air -- in this case, by helicopter
(5) We know that you cannot fly over or around the Island in virtually any contrivance without crashing, be it 747, biplane, helicopter or hot air balloon. (I am not including the Black Rock in that list because I don't believe it crashed on the Island)

And what can we take from all that? I think we can start theorizing a number of things...

(1) The Necessity of Submarine Travel

Maybe the Others travel to and from the Island by submarine because it's the only SAFE way to get there. Under the water. Clearly, all the air travel crashes... the only instance we know of anyone "leaving" the Island by any other means are Walt and Michael, by following a given set of coordinates. But we don't even know that Michael and Walt made it anywhere.

(2) So Where's the Island? The Savage Land?

Someplace too hazardous for air travel... I don't know... I threw out a crazy theory last night that the Island exists somewhere in the arctic, an odd pocket of tropicality like the Savage Land from the X-Men comics (I'm assuming at least half of you posting here are familiar). The methods of travel to and from the Island and the Savage Land are similar... lost boats, planes gone astray... having to find that one remote path that somehow leads you to the arctic tropical zone.

Crazy, I know. But follow this for a second... Assume the Island is in its own climate zone in the arctic -- it's own wind, current and magnetic patterns. It could keep Desmond sailing for weeks in a "snow globe" as it were, screwing with his compass and navigation, eventually returning him to the Island. Further, it explains the necessity of submarine travel. Traveling in the air will bring you down in or around the Island because of the magnetism/violent air currents. Traveling on the surface of the ocean around the Island leaves you at the mercy of the winds and currents. Traveling UNDER the water... well, that's how you get out of the "snow globe," get under the South Pole ice, and get back out to the world?

It might also explain why Penny's Portuguese employees were in an ARCTIC listening station searching for magnetic anomalies?

(I personally think this whole theory is bonkers, but let's mess around with it for a while -- and the Island doesn't necessarily have to be smack in the middle of the South Pole for these ideas to be relevant)

I'm sure there's much more to be said about this latest excellent episode. Sorry for the long post, looking forward to chatting it up today.

~Radzinsky

[elle]

@ Radzinsky -
I confirmed it myself, right after I posted it. Monk is NOT the same as Isaac from S.O.S. Sorry - got waaay ahead of myself there. (Note to self - check facts before posting theories) :-)

[badger_moldy]

After rewatching the episode after sleeping on it (like Meat Loaf), I couldn't stop thinking about all the references to Abraham, Issac, sacrifice, etc. Does anyone think that Charlie may be forced to sacrifice himself, knowingly through Desmond, for the greater good?

[Bryan from the Dena]

Hey Guys, loved last nights episode, it was a great back story for Desmond. I think we were given new information to a mystery that many think was already solved with the helicopter crashing. When flight 825 went down, we were given information that lead us to believe that Desmond caused it. However, there was no longer a button to push (or not push) to cause this girl to crash. This being the case can we really say with any certainty that it was Desmond's fault that the helicopter crashed and not just a coincidence? Any thoughts on that.

Also, I now this is sad, but after the initial shock of seeing Charlie impaled I thought to my self, finally. Yeah I am a bad person.

Oh and since this is from the teaser for next weeks episode I am going to call it a spoiler theory.

Since I am assuming it is public knowledge to all the losties now that pregnant mothers get sick. I have a feeling the Juliet/Sun Conversation next week will lead us to believe that we will get clarification on the conception issue. Because if I remember correctly she said either way she was dead (or something like that) what if that means that if she got pregnant on island, then yes she is dead, but if she got pregnant off island then she is safe, but then Jin will know. Just a thought.

~Bryan from the Dena

[BrianS]

@ Radz

Don't you mean Antarctic? A plane, boat, whatever leaving Australia would not just happen to come across an anomaly in the Arctic... Would have to be the Antarctic.

@ Time Guardian Theorists

I hesitant to go completely along this route. There was no indication in this Desmond flashback that he had the "abilities" yet, as he did in the first Desmond flashback w/ Penny and the watch lady. UNLESS, he always had these abilities and the island has somehow allowed him to realize them.

@ Helicopter Crash

I am confused as to WHY the helicopter crashed. There wasn't a storm brewing...We didn't see lightning...We didn't hear Cebereus creature...And to our knowledge there was no explosion of any sort when the copter crashed into the ocean.

My conclusion is that either the Copter did not crash and was landed safely in the water (we heard a splash in the distance), and the new character was dropped into the jungle to find Desmond while someone else waits for her; OR She was piloting the copter and intentionally bailed out because of a mechanical issue with the Copter and she couldn't land it.

[Benken]

I'm not sure, but don't the days and nights get longer the closer you get to the poles...to the point where you end up with months worth of daylight and 6 months worth of darkness? I don't think we've seen anything to indicate they have anything other than a tropical day/night cycle.

[Benken]

I'm not sure, but don't the days and nights get longer the closer you get to the poles...to the point where you end up with months worth of daylight and 6 months worth of darkness? I don't think we've seen anything to indicate they have anything other than a tropical day/night cycle.

[Osbo]

I actually was quite impressed with this episode. I'm really surprised it's causing some people to jump off - or complain. What was so boring about it? A helicopter!? Charlie dying!?

LONG - I APOLOGIZE ****

Desmond's dillema: take Charlie with him, cause him to die, so he can see Penelope again.

Truth: It was never Penelope, but someone sent by her (OR: It's a helicopter, which has to come from somewhere close, i.e. "Alcatraz"). No, saving Charlie didn't magically transpose Penny from somewhere else.

This episode did show two things: How far he's willing to go to see Penny again, and that he's not just going to sacrifice Charlie. This was his journey. Let it happen, or not.

We found out plenty this episode, and a compelling character to follow. "No offense dude, but that's kind of a sucky superpower."

Desmond is a loner, an aimless drunk who's actually being "put on a path". Plenty have argued that this is set - but I have a different perspective.

People of faith tend to do the next indicated step - what's next, without trying to aim where they're going so much. They take it on trust with whatever they believe in and just go to the next step (Brother Campbell is Catholic, Charlie's a lapsed Catholic coming back into a faith of sorts, Eko also became a believer for the selfish need for redemption, Locke believes in the Island, Ben believes in God / The Island, etc). A certain peace comes through that, yet some perceive them as aimless.

Science is generally perceived by people of faith, when perceived negatively, as mankind attempting to master their own destinies - to take control of the flow of their lives. Jack defies death. Sawyer cons people out of their money in order to find a con-man. Kate kills her abusive step-father. The Dharma Initiative tries to change the Valenzetti equation. Ben believes in Jacob/The Island/God until he's struck with a tumor - his faith is tested, it's shattered, he fails. He does everything he can to get it fixed - though that could be argued as taking something on faith - "Do you believe in God, Jack? I have a tumor on my spine, and a spinal surgeon falls from the sky."

Obviously an ongoing theme in this series has been fatalism vs. free will. Both people of Faith and People of Science believe in free well. To an extent they both believe in predictability and predestination, but they do come at odds as to how that is all achieved. Science attempts to curb death and destruction through knowledge and experimentation. Faith accepts death and destruction as a part of a higher plan or will, when there's no other choice.

As we've seen, Moriah is the mountain in which Abraham is asked to sacrifice his only son - the one that he and his wife have attempted so hard to conceive - a miracle at Sarah's 90 year old age. He follows through, and is allowed to sacrifice a goat instead. He takes it on faith that he must sacrifice this child, one he'd worked so hard to bring into this world.

Locke suddenly can't walk and climb a mountain, so he tells Boone to do so. After he does, Boone dies, and Jack can't save him. Locke keeps from Jack the details of this, and Boone dies as a result. From then on, he refers to Boone as a sacrifice the island demanded, though one could see that he's deferring guilt in the Island's name (i.e. taking the Island's name in vain) - he continues down this path, "knowing" what the island wants him to do. Eventually he blows up a hatch, and suddenly he seems to take this as his purpose.

Desmond can't accept love into his life. He runs away from Ruth, then Penny. Running away from Ruth landed him in a monastary. Running away from Penny landed him in jail. His path is aimless, until he's given a roadmap. But the sacrifice he's asked to do, is too much for him to accept.

The Others are suddenly not able to conceive. They bring in scientists and surgeons throughout the world, the best they can find to deter this problem. They, or at least Ben, doesn't accept it as part of their destiny. It is possible that the Dharma Initiative, people of science (though science wrapped in Eastern faith and philosophy - which also argues fatalism vs. free will in a more grounded sense), caused this to happen, thereby deterring from the Island's will.

Sarah is paralyzed from the neck down. Her husband doesn't accept it and moves on. Jack works with her until she's fixed. He falls in love as a result, but can't let her go as soon as she is fixed, and she wants to move on. He wants the world to go his way, by his will. But he can't control others - especially his father.

Christian, his father, can't accept his professional and personal losses. He runs away on a drunken binge, taking along Ana-Lucia, an ex-cop who can't accept a professional and personal loss - the legal decision of the City of LA, so she kills someone.

Eko's quest for redemption ends when he realizes that all he's gone on to do has lead to the Good Person he believes he is today, so he doesn't regret it - though he doesn't deny his guilt along the way. For some reason he's killed for this - the one person who's accepted inevitability. Though he accepts death in the same fashion.

The list goes on.

While certain things have been discredited, there's certainly narrative resonance with a lot of ideas. Purgatory - the Catholic concept of being between heaven and hell, until one accepts where they must go or not, is metaphorically resonant here. The show is about people dealing with who they are, and whether they accept it or not. Images of the afterlife (Hades, for example) also fall into this idea. This is why all these ideas pop up.

I have never seen a show so metatextual. I believe one of the reasons people enjoy it is everything (from "Catch 22" to "Exodus") that subtly and not-so-subtly jumps at us. The show is literary, yet unpretentious (unlike myself, who's pretentious, but non-literary). It hits the chords of myth and religion that are relevant across most faiths, and hits the very modern concept of technological control over destiny. Here are people, as stated in the podcast, are thematically "lost", and are looking for direction.

Desmond, as seen in this episode, received his direction. As did Locke, as did Eko, as did Boone to an extent. But Penelope seems to be the most successful at it...

Penelope believes in Love. She may be a part of the Widmore family, but she does everything in her power to reunite with her love - even if he seems to run away at every turn. She successfully mixes the "opposing" ideas of science and faith. She faithfully looks and waits for her long-lost love, much like the Penelope of the Odyssey. Still, in opposition to the "faithful's" deferring of guilt to a higher power, she takes responsibility for her destiny. She uses the money and resources in her power to find the man she believes in so much. Even after three years, she hasn't moved on - she knows who she wants to be with. Love has been her guide, and it looks as if it's getting closer and closer to working. She's fighting "destiny" but at the same time, doing what she needs to do to accomplish what she believes in.

...but then - she was never "lost" to begin with.

---

Oh and on an unrelated note - that picture being photoshopped probably means that they couldn't bring the actress in for a photo shoot and nothing more. The picture looks like it's difficult to match the lighting. Production gaffes are production gaffes, and they happen all the time - it's inevitable.

[BrianS]

@ Bryan from the Dena

I think Sun said "I lose either way." or something to that effect. In other words, either she dies, or the baby has to die. I don't think she meant that she'd die in either situation. That wouldn't be a Catch-22...

[Mark B]

Missing from my previous post was the fact that the biggest thing about this episode was that other non-Other people can get to the island of, we preume, their own free will however they can't land or leave. Assuming 'parachutte lady' is not an Other, but lets not start on that one.

I'm reading Radz post (and I'm certain someone else must have made this connection before) but I remember as a child watching a film called The Land That Time Forgot (based on a novel by Edgar Rice Burrows who most famously wrote Tarzan) about a submarine that went under a polar ice cap and found a small "tropical island" that had dinosaurs roaming around and all sorts of weird stuff. I think there were people on the island too but they were friendly, the film was set in WWI and the sub was trying to escape from being torpedoed by another sub or depth charged or something I don't recall. As I recall there were British and German troops on the sub and they were forced into an uneasy alliance. The sub eventually escaped from the island just in the nick of time after a volcanic erruption (I think) but the guys on the sub who had left some people behind died and those left behind survived on the island.

The Land That Time Forgot is avaliable free online through Project Gutenberg as is the sequel The People That Time Forgot and the final book of the trilogy Out of Time's Abyss. I've not read either of the sequels but the title of the last book sounds very Lost-esque. That is probably the only connection though !

@badger moldy : like the idea of Charlie sacrificing himself for the good of the Losties it would be a 'nice' way to kill him off. However I suspect that Charlies death (if it happens -- it could be a huge foiler) may not be clear cut and he may get swept away out to sea or be dragged off by Smokey thus leaving an opening for him to return.

[Radzinsky]

@ BrianS

I most definitely do mean ANTARCTIC. Please do a mental substitution for every instance of my mistake in my prior post. :)

On the "Time Guardians" notion...

Don't get hung up on the whole question of 'abilities.' All I'm really pointing out is that we likely have a pair of people now who have a unique relationship to TIME. The simplest explanation is that they (Brother Campbell and the appropriately nicknamed Ms. Hawking) can see the future. A more complicated explanation is that not only can they see the future, but that they are RESPONSIBLE for the future -- and consequently, they watch over and direct Desmond's life. I think those two ideas are fairly stable. Where you go from them is pure speculation - who they are, why they do what they do, etc.

On the "Helicopter Crash" notion...

I'm going to offer a heretical idea: THE CRASH OF FLIGHT 815 WAS NOT CAUSED BY THE 108 TIMER HITTING 00:00.

What if it was pure coincidence? Occam's Razor is popular here, so let's take it from the simplest explanation. You think that the 108 timer and the electromagnetic anomaly caused the crash of Flight 815 on 9/22/04? Alright. By extension, then, there had to be a magnetic anomaly when Henry Gale's balloon fell from the sky... when Yemi's small biplane crashed in the trees... AND when the helicopter crashed last night.

But wait... there COULD NOT have been any magnetic anomaly interference last night, it was dispersed when Desmond turned the key. Ipso facto, it could not have been the EM anomaly contained in the Swan hatch that crashed the helicopter. (Let's also dispense with the notion that the helicopter landed in the sea on purpose -- we definitely heard its engine fail, and the parachutist landed in a less than desireable fashion). I'd also propose that the EM anomaly did not cause the balloon or the biplane to crash on the Island either.

What if, as I suggested before, any and all air travel around the Island winds up crashing on the Island? What if Flight 815 would have crashed regardless of what was going on in the Swan hatch? What if it's something about the location of the Island, the energy/weather/forces which keep it secret and keep it mysterious that cause things to crash there?

I can think of one big flaw in this theory -- something that needs to be explained before it can really be validated -- but I'll see if anyone else can figure out what it is before I disprove myself.

~Radzinsky

[Lorne]

With all this religion bent from the episode, and the mythology, it seems like there are 2 or more different agendas.
The thought crossed my mind that it's different gods acting through different people, groups, (islands), to get control of something.

[Osbo]

@Lorne

As stated above, I think it's more what most religions relates to - the idea of taking things and actions on faith, as part of a master plan that isn't understandable by the participants of it.

The Taoist and Buddhist allusions also dealt with fate vs. free will.

None of that seems to be at odds.

[BrianS]

@ Radz Re: Time Guardians

I have to politely disagree. If these two are actually time guardians, then why focus their energy on Desmond unless they know he already is special in some way. He has a ability, but needs "training" to know how to use it. Sort of like a Jedi...? I think there is more to their relationship to Desmond in particular than just being time guardians. They have a plan for HIM.

@ Radz Re: Crashing

I see your point, however, what would cause all of these crafts to crash on the island: 1) pilot error, 2) EM field screwing with compasses/headings, 3) weather, 4) sabotage/weapons.

Could it be that all of these crashes are NOT connected by one singular cause:
1) Desmond's boat - pilot error
2) Flight 815 - EM field
3) Yemi's plane - Weather
4) Balloon - Sabotage
If you use this logic, then an intentional "crash landing" by the copter pilot is feasible.

@ Osbo

WOW!

[idjk]

@Radzinsky

Where then do the supply drops originate from?

@badger_moldy

Isaac was not forced to sacrifice himself, nor was Abraham ultimately forced to sacrifice Isaac. Should the thematic connections between the two hold true, then, Desmond should believe he must sacrifice Charlie only to ultimately have Charlie spared (by fate, by some higher power, etc)

[Mark B]

A freakishly long ew article on last nights epi ....

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20035721,00.html

[badger_moldy]

@idjk

I agree with what you with regard to last night's episode, but I was extrapolating at the end of my post. Desmond has told Charlie on numerous occasions that Charlie would have died had Desmond not saved him. Charlie's death is inevitable, as it is for anyone, but it seems that Charlie is destined to die on the island. I think that sooner or later, a situation will arise that will put Charlie's life in danger where the positives towards others on the island will outweigh his instinct for self-preservation. But is Charlie ready to die? "How daft do you think I am to come with you?" or something to that effect. I am familiar with the Biblical story of Abraham & Isaac, it was a test of Abraham's faith and devotion to God. Having a son born to him in his and his wife's old age was a miracle and the best thing that God had blessed him with...giving Isaac up for God would have been the greatest sacrifice outside of giving his own life. Also, Isaac was a fully grown man when he was sacrificed, easily able to overpower his old father if he didn't want to be sacrificed. He gave himself up willingly, as Christ did. In relation to LOST, who would be served best by Charlie dying (other than the viewers)? Is it a test for Charlie? He has had interactions with the three "faith" characters - Locke, Eko and Desmond. And if it is a test, who or what would be the "ram" or the sacrifice that would take his place?

[Radzinsky]

@ idjk

You have the flaw. If all flying contraptions around the Island crash, then how do the supply drops get there?

I don't know. Perhaps Dharma knows enough about the Island to fly some sort of shielded plane for the supply drops, or they fly at such a high altitude that they avoid the Island interference.

I still think we have to at least CONSIDER the possibility that Desmond didn't cause Flight 815 to crash.

@ Osbo

Don't get too focused on Desmond's abilities or anything like that -- training him like a Jedi, etc. -- all I'm really saying is that Ms. Hawking and now Brother Campbell are DIRECTING Desmond towards a certain destiny. And, if we take that one step further, the natural question is: who are these people and what is their goal for Desmond?

One other thing...

Did anybody notice just how SLY Jack was last night? Picking up on the comment that Sawyer made during ping-pong and recognizing that Kate had said it the night before -- i.e. outing them on having been together. Nothing slips past Jack -- the writers show you that over and over, I believe intentionally. Jack is ON TO Juliet. He's playing along with her game, gently asking her questions to find out more about her ("Did they teach you to be a carpenter over there, too"), he allowed Juliet to save Claire, knowing that in order to infiltrate the camp Juliet had to do a good deed and therefore Claire wasn't in danger... Jack is going to open up a can of poker-con artist-whup ass during the season finale.

~Radzinsky

[Deviant]

Very good episode, but I feel that people won't praise it as much as some others because of how predictable it was. The back story added little, but it lead to the cute story of how Penny and Des met. And the on-island stuff had a pretty clear path from the get-go, and not just because it was a visions ep.

From the very start, you knew Desmond was searching for Penny, you knew he'd save Charlie and you knew the episode would end with the reveal of someone who wasn't Penny after all. The fact that the story that got us to all of those things was great is like a consolation prize.

As for next week, I get the feeling that Sun's quote about "I lose either way" refers to finding out who the father is. If it's Jin and the baby was conceived on the island, she's in trouble. Or, she could be safe, but then Jin wouldn't be the father.

Catch-22 was a great "set up" episode. And much like Cooper appearing on the island, and Juliet infiltrating the camp, I can't wait to see where our three major storylines take us. All three storylines are awesome. I wish I could watch the next five episodes now.

[jg]

@ Osmo
wow x 2

subject: "The Button"

Theory: The Island has a continuous strong magnetic field which causes fancy navigation euipment to malfunction as well as other high tech machines to stop working. The button pushing was a "Degaussing procedure." This allows the sub to navigate; without the Degauss function it can't find the island again. Desmond didn't degauss in time...815 crashes. The coordinates of the island are known by a select few. To go to these remote coordinates is a leap of faith.

subject: Satellite phone
Samsung batteries...for sure

[Bryan from the Dena]

@Radzinsky

I totally agree with you about Desmond not causing flight 815. That answer just seemed too easy and convenient for the writers to let that be the real reason. I also feel that it would cheapen the island and the mystery around it. Also if it was just a coincidence that the plane was off course and happens to be over the island at that time, then we must assume everything prior to the flight was a coincidence. Every character interaction or back story appearance would be a coincidence, and that is far less interesting than some grand power controlling everything, whether that be Jacob or the island or whatever.

~Bryan from the Dena

[Radzinsky]

@ Bryan from the Dena

...UNLESS Brother Campbell and Ms. Hawking can indeed see the future -- maybe even as Desmond can -- and they made SURE that events transpired such that Desmond would be on the Island, would fail to push the button in that instance, and would make the plane crash?

Just throwing that out there now, even though I still think there's a bigger problem with trying to fly over the Island rather than just the magnetic field which supposedly brought Flight 815 down.

[Mark B]

subject : monastry == hatch training
This is a bit of a stretch but did Brother Campbell take Des to the monastry to prepare him for living in the hatch ?Could he have been training Des in the monastry for his time in the hatch. I'm not saying he locked Des in a room and told him to do something every 108 mins but the novice life is a difficult one, a solitary one, one with lots of time on your own for reflection and reading, a vow of silence, living in a small cell, living a simple life. Not unlike the time Des would have spent in the hatch alone.

[biolite]

@ jg

My thought exactly, you can't fly over the island or sail to it without the magnetics screwing with your plane/boat causing the inevitable crash. The food drops could be made because someone was pressing the button and controlling the magnetics. Now that the swan station is gone, no more food drops.

@ Radzinsky

I like the notion that there are guardians on the lookout for Desmond, making sure he gets where he needs to be. The monk subtly moving Des on his path to the island, and the old woman who (less subtly) explains more of Desmond's "mission” I am inclined to think that these forces are "God" OR some natural force, like the Island perhaps.

My Pet Theory:

I don't think Jacob is a person at all. I think he is a computer. My pet theory is that the hostiles were native to the island. When Dharma arrived and began installing the tunnels, station, utilities, etc the hostiles just stayed in hiding OR were taken in by the Dharma initiative for study.

I think the statue indicates that there was life on the island pre-dharma, but there's no way any native people could construct any of the structures we've seen on the island.

Then the purge. The others actually become the hostiles and begin attacking the Dharma initiative for whatever reason, and the Dharma initiative tries to get rid of them all together. But they fail, and the hostiles assimilate all that remains of Dharma, except the swan. Cerberus was probably a tool of Dharma's since there are vents made for it, it sounds mechanical and they have a fence that can stop it. Also the others don't know much/fear Cerberus so it doesn’t look like it's working for them.

I think Jacob (or J.A.C.O.B.) was a super computer built by Dharma to try and adjust the Valenztti equation. The hostiles encounter Jacob and are awed by this machine and come to revere it as God like; they personify it as a deity. JACOB the machine is the one that teaches them, makes lists, assimilates all the knowledge from the flame and gives plans of action. JACOB the computer would have to be intelligent, like HAL from 2001 and was either reprogrammed OR is working on it's own agenda.

The island (or God) is working using its own tools to try and stop JACOB’s ultimate goal, whatever that is. Tools like Desmond who can now see the future, and Cerberus who is now under the islands control, and Locke who I still think is working for the islands greater good and not the hostiles’. Though, Locke can always be tricked into helping the hostiles, we know he’s a bit of a sucker

This is, of course, wild speculation; feel free to tear it apart. I just don't recall if they actually refer to Jacob as a great man. I know Ben (posing as Henry Gale) refers to the leader of the others as a great man, but he could of been referring to himself since I get an arrogance vibe from him ;)

~Biolite

[Cihan]

1] The white haired lady in the photograph could be explained if we learn that Desmond hallucinated travelling back in time and that he'd already met/had a relationship with the monk's wife, and that if his hallucinations were manipulated by another being, then that being used the monk's wife to communicate with him. (seriously, I'm really against time-travel in this series)

2] Was it really a chopper? Didnt they mention it didnt sound like one? If its a chopper, as has been mentioned, we know they cant travel too far from somewhere to land. I've always had a sneaky suspicion the island is horribly close to a mainland this whole time. Would be an awesome twist, just to see the look on the Losties' faces.

3] Too early to assume the Portugese-speaking guys at the end of season 2 were in the antarctic. There are snowy mountains in South America too. (pacific side)

Good episode. Jin's ghost story is classic.

[Pauly]

As Jack, Sawyer, and Kate were all absent when the hatch blew and the sky turned purple, are we to assume that they have been told by other "beachies" what happened since they left with Michael? Or are we back to the possibility of an alternate dimension?

[jg]

@ biolite
holy K.O.W.! I was thinking that same thing. Maybe J.K.B. or some other acronym. The context of conversations does make it look as though he is a revered human, though it could be misdirection.

[Radzinsky]

@ Mark B

I love it. Brother Campbell preparing Desmond the monk for a monastic lifestyle in the Swan hatch. Brilliant.

@ Biolite

Jacob has most definitely been referred to on multiple occasions as a "great man." I, for one, think he's most definitely a person, and I suspect that his "abilities," whatever they might be, have something to with the nature of time, and the unique relationship that Desmond, Brother Campbell and Ms. Hawking have to time. Maybe Campbell and Hawking are guiding Desmond to some confrontation with Jacob? Recall that Desmond would be the one Lostie that the Others don't know about. Further, when Juliet was *glaring* at the very conclusion of the last episode with an angry look in her eye, she was most assuredly looking at Desmond -- shown on sites like www.thetailsection.com and others -- so perhaps there is more to the Desmond-Others connection after all.

@ Cihan

Jin's ghost story... one of the truly classic moments of this season. Lost is rarely hysterical, but that was really funny.

~Radzinsky

[JackedupLockedown]

@ Cihan

I thnik it is clear there is an element of time travel or at least preception of such. The clues from room 23 as well as several subtle dialouge clues have me convinced. Like you I am concerned this will move the show beyond my suspension of disbelief and start up Fonzie's motor boat.

@Radz

How've you been? I think the submarine is\was the only route off the Island since the fail safe was turned. Whatever that button did made it easier for Dharma to come and go from the Island. To me this what Occams Razor dictates. We can assume people did no freely come and go from the Island previous to Dharma's arrivial. We know the sky turning purple impacted the Islands communication connection to the outside world, which also was non-existent pre-Dharma, so it's not much of a jump to guess that's why there have been no food drops or people coiming or going since.

I like the Artic Island in a bubble theory. And having to go under the ice to get there. It is impossible to disporve (right now) and several clues lead towards it. However Desmond's boat ending up there makes it seem highly unlikely. (Unless the Island moves but that's a whole other thoery I don't understand)

@ Lorne

No doubt to me there are two distinct groups with two distinct agendas at work here. I believe in it's simpliest form it's Ben and the Others vs. the Island...but there are a lot of levels underneath that that explain where all the bit players come in.

@ Matt Jones and other fans of Vonnegut

Did you ever read "God Bless you Mr. Rosewater" ? How do you think it stacks up against Timequake and Slaughterhouse 5?

RE: Lostcasts wiki page

Anybody have any thoughts on what sort of direction we should go with this page. I would like to utilize it as a theory builder for the summer and fall while lost is on break. Ideas peeps?

[Radzinsky]

@ Cihan

Also, don't judge the Island's distance to the mainland by the fact that it was a helicopter that reached the Island. First, helicopters regularly take off and land on boats, so it doesn't HAVE to go a long range. Second, Yemi's flight from Nigeria would never have the means to reach the Island, but it somehow wound up there as well. I don't know that flight range is a factor we can consider.

[BrianS]

Re: Access to the island

I don't think the only way to get to the island is through some mystical ice cap. The Dharma tunnels are built with TONS of concrete. To get those materials to the island would take an air freight or a barge. We haven't seen an air strip or a marina yet, but that doesn't mean these things don't exist. I think the sub was a decoy and there are ways to access the island safety, if allowed.

Also, when the drop-shipment of food was delivered, it followed a sequence of hatch events. But the timing was VERY close. So the supply planes need to be close by. Also remember that when the supplies were dropped, we didn't hear a plane/copter noise, only the sound of something dropping at high velocity. So, the drop happened at a higher altitude. In order to make that happen, the coordinates of the island would have to be accurate, and the plane would have to be able to fly the proper trajectory.

I am beginning to think more and more that the 815 crash was orchestrated and Desmonds actions in the hatch were coincidental to make him THINK he was the cause of the crash.

Remember, this is all a mind game.

[Cihan]

@ Radzinsky. True that choppers fly off ships, but I was going for the more fantastically humourous theory of a mainland being oh-so close to the island. If there is a ship though, and it would have to be a pretty big one, you have to wonder what kind of strings Penny pulled to pull that off.

As for time travel, I know there's been a lot of imagery and dialogue that wants us to think about the concept of time, what it is and what humans place in it is, but like JackedupLockedown mentions, the show risks jumping a Dharma shark and landing in murky waters. I trust the writers though, always have, I just think we should still keep our minds open to the fact that Desmond is being duped in some way. He's not getting random flashes, they're purposely aimed at Charlie, this shows a third party responsible for the visions, hence Desmond is being manipulated into undertaking a specific task. It may be for good or evil, but maybe his 'time-travel' adventure was merely a psychological way to motivate him to undertake the task. Now granted, this could be achieved by literally sending him through time, but I'd rather it was just a hallucination.

The 'only fools are trapped by space and time' type quote doesnt necessarily mean literally breaking through time, but can be seen as more like escaping ones past, which is what we're seeing with the characters and their flashbacks. Again, its ironic this quote is from the Others camp, as they are relying on the Losties to act like their old selves so they can be manipulated with ease.

Another classic moment in this episode: "Are you discussing who's your favourite Other?" - Sawyer. I'm going to chalk that one up to Brian K. Vaughn.

[BrianS]

@ Radz

If the copter from last night was engaged from a boat or nearby land mass, it would mean that Penny's group knows what the island can do and are cautious about getting too close.

If Penny's group didn't know anything about the island, they would have sent a proper search party. Which would have in-turn been cast-aways as well.

The only other explanation is that this new character is a plant to get to Desmond. Maybe she's working with Juliet, and Benry to infiltrate the castaways and use Desmond's power to their advantage.

[Andrew]

Foreshadowing:

In Tricia Tanaka Charlie was wearing a Highway 61 Revisited shirt as was talked about on the podcast, Bob Dylan's song opens with the lines:
Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What ?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done ?"
God says. "Out on Highway 61".

@MarkB
Great point. His life in the hatch certainly was like a monk in his cell performing his ritualistic button-pushing like how some monks perform prayers at regular times throughout the day.

Regarding the fertility/religion themes: certainly seems like Lost is covering some of the same areas as Battlestar Galactica as well as the issue of a group of complex sinister "others" (the human-like robot cylons).

Maybe the smoke monster is Jacob?
Ben as the only person born on the island (that we know of) is or claims to be the intermediary between Jacob and everyone else. If the smoke monster is the one who appears as the phantom people (Christian, etc.)

Maybe the monster is a sort of emergent property of the island which could fit in with the Lostpedia reference to Jacob Boehme: "who came up with the idea that God was a binary, fractal, self-replicating algorithm and that the universe was a genetic matrix resulting from the existential tension created by His desire for self-knowledge" http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Jacob

[biolite]

@ Cihan

YES! I was pumped to see Brian K. Vaughn's name on that episode! He's writes some of the best comics going!

@ Radzinsky

I still think Jacob might be a machine. He could be a computer that speaks in a male voice so the others refer to him as a he. Or it could be a man's face on a screen talking (think the Computer from Red Dwarf ;) )

I do think that who/whatever Jacob ends up being he dose have some great abilities. Wether they're time related or not that remains to be seen.

Also, the others would know that Desmond was on the island if they checked the pearl station at all in the years between Desmonds arrival and the crash of 815. They may not know he's still alive. Also they may have some animosity to him since he was working for Dharma (by Default). They might be bitter over the whole purge thing.

~Biolite

[Adrian]

Im from Carlisle (yes the one mentioned in LOST) and I have never seen Desmond unloading a car full of wine here.

[Bryan from the Dena]

@Radzinsky

Ok so if we decide that the monk and his wife are grooming Desmond for something could we say that this guy either is Jacob or works directly for him. This just seems right up "Jacobs" alley to manipulate things this far in advance.

~Bryan from the Dena

[JackedupLockedown]

Topic: Smokey is getting a bad rap

We call him the "monster" when in fact he has only killed two people. On the Island he's tied with Ana Lucia and Michael by my count. The whispers and smokey are in cahoots to be sure. Vincent rolls with that pack also.

Topic: The Portuguese Paratrooper

I think we can be sure this has something to do with Penny and the listening station. She is there to find Desmond, that's why she had the picture of him. Also I like Radz's (and others too) thinking that she arrived off some larger vessel that had gotten "as close as it could get". They said after season two that the listening station cliffhanger from the finale would be revisted before the end of season 3 and this is it IMO.

Topic: Ms. Hawking

This one throws me for a loop. Again hoping it's sort of a viewer skinner box thing and this is the stimuli to throw us off, because I don't like an of the resolves I can see playing out. Really I think she only exists in Desmonds "flash" world because he seen her in that picture. Nice job with the cut and paste tool adding her to the photo.
Also I time I think superimpose I think Adam Sandler anybody else get that?

Topic: My beef with the episode

While there is no such thing as a bad episode for me, the ones like this that leave me unsatisfied have one thing in common. I feel like sometimes a 30 minute plot is stretched into an hour, that being the case last night. A lot of hookey stuff in this one, that's becoming more of a theme in third season along with a lot of self contained predictable plots.

Perhaps this is the show reacting to the precieved drop in viewers, or perhaps it's just me becoming more familiar with the writers style and the shows concept that makes them predictable. Regardless the show is still great and I think really hitting it's stride for a great conclusion to season three.

[Joop]

Another connection to the Joseph Heller novel (other than the Portuguese edition). Weren't the happy campers whistling an Air Force tune?

Great posts, all the big questions have been addressed...except...why was the under water cable so important to Desmond? It was his first puzzle piece and seemed like an integral part of his perceived series of events. Hurley finding the cable & the helicopter seemed like a cause & effect. I know a helicopter would not pick up under water sonar, but what if the cable powered some sort of cloaking shield & Hurley severed an already loose connection?

[ebonX]

I thought this ep was "above average" ... I would give it like a 6 or 7.

If you read the spoilers beforehand, the whole mystery of Desmond's 'Catch-22' would have been spoiled ... Let that be a lesson to everyone (including myself).

Re: Time Guardians

I am thinking Brother Campbell & Mrs. Hawking are similar to Father Time & Mother Earth in the Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series ... They are guiding Desmond toward his fate. When thinking about their interaction with Desmond, you cannot think linearly, as they (and eventually Desmond) are not "Enslaved by Time & Space". Brother Campbell is in Desmond's life, so that he can meet Penny, which will eventually lead him to the point where Mrs. Hawking steps in ... They are guiding him to the Island (and thus his eventual freedom from time & space).

Re: Desmond's 'Catch-22'

So the real interesting idea to ponder is if Desmond would have found Penny if Charlie would have died? ... The Island is the manifestation of Faith (i.e. whatever you believe to be true will be true, if it is truly faith that guides one's belief -- Ex. On the Island 1+1=3 if one truly believed that, but since no one truly believes thus, it is not true).

In regards to the whole Abraham/Isaac parallel, Desmond's 'Catch-22' is his sacrifice to the Island to show his faith, but in the end, he saves Charlie, thus showing his "lack" of faith, and thus the Island does not reward Desmond as he failed the Island's (God's) Test of Faith.

Re: FreeWill/Coincidence vs. Fate/Faith

As I stated in a previous post, I do not believe we will ever get a definitive answer to this question. We are trying to answer the question is everything fate or simply coincidence. We are trying to answer in "Black & White" terms, but as TPTB have stated (thru various philosophical references), the answer is some shade of "Gray" ... Now for the tougher question, is it really fate or coincidence? That all depends on each of us individually.

Re: "Where is the Island?"

Although it is fun to speculate that the Island is an actual place on Earth (Savage Land, Mu, Atlantis, etc.), I agree with whoever stated (in some previous thread) that the Island is at the "End of the Rainbow" (or "Down the Rabbit Hole" or "Through the Looking Glass" or "In a Galaxy Far Far Away") ... Every scene (that we have seen) of people coming to the Island fits this ... Some kind of event occurs while people are LOST in their travels (plane crashing, boat in a storm, etc.) ... Cutscene & Blackness ... Then one awakens on the Island! Remember that no one has even seen the Island prior to waking up on it. Also, the Island is not "Enslaved by Time & Space" so distance to other locations is not of any consequence.

@JackedUp - Re: LOSTcasts Wiki ...

I think using it to "flush out" theories is a great idea over Summer/Fall ... We can do it 1 of 2 ways ... (1) People create a wiki page with their theory (as I did last week), and then put a link to the page in the discussion thread ... or (2) We can create various wiki pages based on subjects (Island, Others, DHARMA, etc.), which I am more than willing to do, and then people can go to the page and edit those pages with their ideas, thoughts, comments, etc.

Both methods have their own advantages & drawbacks ...

That's all I got for now ... Stay LOST!

[idjk]

@ebonX

Re: "Where is the Island?"

Not everyone's blacked out. Kate claimed to have been awake the whole time. The pilot transcript:

[Shot of a leaf torn into the shape of an airplane.]
JACK [off camera at first]: We must have been at about 40,000 feet when it happened. Hit an air pocket. Dropped, maybe, 200 feet. The turbulence was: I blacked out.
KATE: I didn't. I saw the whole thing. I knew that the tail was gone, but I couldn't bring myself to look back. And then the, the front of the plane broke off.

[Cihan]

For Matrix geeks out there, if you're considering the white haired lady as the Oracle, then her husband would be...the Architect.

[biolite]

@joop

I think Desmond needed to find the cable becasue that was the point on the island where they needed to camp if they wanted to see the helicopter and it's pilot bail out.

~biolite

[ebonX]

@idjk -

You are correct! ... Kate said she saw the whole thing, but did she see the Island prior to the crash (i.e. look out the window of the plane and see the Island)? We have never been shown (thru anybody's perceptions, not even in the opening scene of the Pilot), that the Island was actually there prior to anyone landing on it, from the point of view of an outsider. We see pieces of the plane falling out of the sky (similar to the falling helicopter last night), but no one can prove that the Island is actually in the South Pacific (no satellite photos, etc.) if you are looking for the Island as an outsider. Penelope's rescue effort was sent to coordinates (given by the Portuguese Outpost at the end of S2) ... Is there actually an Island you can see at those coordinates.

There is a name for the scientific axiom for this idea, but it eludes me right now ...

[ursinha]

jonny and lostcasters. pink is the new blog has a screen cap of the old lady with the monk. it's creepy.

http://trent.blogspot.com/

[Nash]

Did you guys catch the fact that Charlie (post arrow in the neck) was in Desmond's future-vision helping the woman down using the parachute? I suspect it was just a production error, but you never know. Maybe Desmond knew that he would never let Charlie die and that he would be around to help the woman down???

http://www.twogianthamsters.com/2007/04/parachute-catch-actual-vs-future-vision.html

[Joop]

@ biolite

You're right about the cable possibly being nothing more than a land mark, but since Desmond rushed the series of events, I'm wondering how long until Hurley would have stumbled across it. The helicopter being heard subsequent to that is what made me think 'cause & effect'.

He might have for-seen the location of the pilot based on the cable, but she would have been there for any length of time. I was only thinking of Charlie when he asked for the first-aid.

BTW, I loved Desmond's line to Jack about sprained ankles.

[ebonX]

Great catch Nash!

[Tahir]

Just a thought....

I know in previous Lostcasts episodes its mentioned to be careful about making black on black connections but could the parachute lady not only have a connection to Desmond and Penny but also the real Henry Gale.