Get Ready: D.O.C.

We didn't get this post up before the airing of season 3, episode 18, D.O.C... But here it is! And we have plenty of time to talk about it before the podcast this weekend. Get us your comments for the podcast by posting them here, sending us an email, or leaving an audio comment on our automated voicemail by calling: 206-666-2278.

Comments

[Experiment 626]

Oh, man ... where do I begin?

I'll start with Mikhail. I believe that Mikhail may have been injured by the fence -- possibly severely or perhaps superficially. He was obviously not killed, and the island healed his injuries. I say that maybe his injuries weren't severe because I'm given to understand that head injuries may bleed copiously even when they are minor.

He came bursting out of the jungle and was surprised to find Desmond's group. I believe he was responding to the flare Hurley accidentally fired. So who was he expecting to find?

I feel that we're on the verge of finding out even more about the healing properties of the island.

What did Naomi really say to Mikhail? It certainly wasn't an expression of gratitude as he claimed. Early reports suggest it was Portuguese and may have been the equivalent of "I am not alone." If so, does she have a companion who also made it to the island? Maybe the pack with the phone, book and other goodies belonged to that person.

Sun has a couple of months, potentially, before the fact that she is pregnant must be dealt with in the story. That could equal a couple of seasons if the producers choose. I suspect it will be settled before that.

So what of Naomi's bombshell about Flight 815 being found with no survivors? Well, she said "they" found it, so I'm proceeding on the presumption that she was not personally present when it was "found." Two theories: The crash was staged with a similar plane by someone (Penny, Dharma, the Others -- take your pick) so that the island would not be found during a continued search -- or perhaps there is an alternate timeline/reality, where there were survivors, and those are the people we've seen. The producers have nixed the idea of purgaqtory many times, and I don't think you can parachute into purgatory anyway.

And it was great to see Jin in action! Nice to finally see one of the 815 survivors (?) bring the beat-down!

Any thoughts? ;)

SSB

[Radzinsky]

Um.... Kate's pregnant.

~Radzinsky

[Experiment 626]

It does seem likely that Kate is pregnant.

[Justin]

Great episode last night. I think the others are really just protecting their secrecy. When Juliet got involved secrecy/security was a major issue. When the losties landed on the island the others just wanted to make sure that they weren't found or discovered. They took the kids because they could protect/raise them but if they took any adults in they would just try and leave the island which would expose the island's location and what the others were doing there. I believe that the people Ben works for set up a fake plane and told the public everyone was dead in order to keep people from looking for the survivors. The others will do anything to protect their work and the secrecy of it.

[sam]

wow, that was a trippy end. One thing that stood out to me (becides the end) was how Juliet knew that the male sperm count was 5 times mroe than normal. Is this the same for everything? Does it include wounds and having your brain explode? It was just the simple fact that Juliet knew the exact number that threw me off. And Hurley, once again, had some great one word one liners.
"Oops"
"What?"
ahh, good times, good times

[Radzinsky]

Well, I believe that Ex. 626 has it right. The whole "Flight 815 crashed and there were no survivors" line has two possibilities:

(1) The alternate timeline theory
Somehow all this playing with time travel has altered the timestream (reality?) and the Losties somehow diverged during or before the plane crash. This also implies that the Island exists as a sort of gateway between the timelines or maybe a nexus of multiple timelines, otherwise Naomi would not be able to cross from the timeline where Flight 815 had no survivors and Flight 815 was lost at sea. Highly unlikely.

(2) The Others substitute Flight 815
Here, Flight 815 takes off, crashes on the Island, and either because the Others engineered the roster and flight path of the real 815 or simply because they took advantage of the inadvertent crash of the real 815, they staged a crash of a fake 815 and made it appear that all those aboard died. If this approach seems unrealistic, it's probably because the means and methods by which a group could stage a crash of a jumbo jet and the deaths of everyone aboard are rather demanding. Could the Others pull it off? Maybe through Herarat Aviation? Perhaps. I'd say it's more likely than the alternate timeline explanation at the moment.

(I also think the timeline business is cheesy, I'd rather a conspiratorial explanation for the whole thing...)

~Radzinsky

[jeffinthe9]

•Ben made a comment a while back about being able to get Juliet more women if needed, since the Other Women keep dieing (count up to 9 now in 3 years) so perhaps the blood samples from the Losties are for future preg. studies by the others.
•Flight crashing... Staged by Dharma/Hanso/Widmore?
•The island heals people, a tension pneumothorax that Naomi had would take weeks if not months to heal, and yet it will take days, could the Losties survival of the flight be contributed to the island, perhaps you cant die on the island unless your shot?
• Mikhail.... What the hell is he still doing alive, perhaps he was talking to Mrs Clue (the black lady in Flame station) about how to fake his death, and if thats so, perhaps the fense doesnt work the way that we think it does. Could the fense be to only keep out Smokie from the Others camp? If it kills everything that comes to it, wouldnt we see animals by it too?
•Juliet.. Shes not all THAT bad, she hates Ben. Could Ben be pulling one more of his games with her right now, to spy on the Losties with promise of getting off the island if she does that? Theres something more there than her being bad... This show is far more complicated.

[Mike in the Box]

Subject: Sun's bad news

Ok so we know that Sun is pregnant by the island induced super-sperm of Jin. From Juliet's info, Sun has about 2 months left. But we are on day 90 (3 months) on the island and almost done with season 3. I think the writers have confirmed that the series will only run for five seasons. (need citation for this) So theoretically, Sun may make it to the last part of the final season. Either 1) she will die at the end of the series, 2) Juliet will cure her, or 3) the LOSTies will get off the island and the "dead pregnant woman" cures will be lifted when she leaves the island.

I do not think that Sun's news is a "death sentence."

[Bryan from the Dena]

So I love that even though the producers have told us the island is not purgatory that they deliberately end the episode in a way that will make people scream that it is. I think what this does is prove that the people on flight 815 were brought to the island intentionally. Let's say fr example JACOB was totally aware of everything that was going on with his group on the island. If this true then it makes sense that he would gather up the neccesary people to assist his followers in the ways they need. (Jack for Ben's physical recovery, Locke for Ben's spiritual recovery, Claire for her off island pregnancy, and all other men and women for other reasons.) It is like the survivors were the equivilent of a Dharma drop but for the Others. Of course if the crash was staged off of the island the question remains, were there bodies in the plane? I guess it would make sense that not all of the bodies would be there, so maybe only the bodies of our Losties are missing.

Has anyone checked Juliet's number of days since the crash against one of our timelines?

I will check back in later.

~Bryan from the Dena

[Mike in the Box]

POSTED ON PREVIOUS THREAD:

The writers have mentioned in the OLP that if a character dies on the island they are indeed dead. So Mikhail did not "die" from the fence. Most likely he suffered some sort of internal hemorrhage, but I am with you that the island allowed for a fast healing/recovery for him. When Mikhail mentioned the healing properties of the island, i took it to refer to his own recovery.

[Radzinsky]

@ Mike and Jeff

I agree with your thoughts on Mikhail. I believe that he knew the sonic fence would put him in a state near death, but that the Island's properties would heal him in a matter of days and he would be able to walk away.

Given the bloodstains that encircled Mikhail's ears last night, we might even doubt that Mikhail has been awake and around for very long. While Mikhail was on the ground, dead and "healing," the Others packed up the village and moved to a different area (perhaps that plateau with tents that we've seen before). Mikhail may not know where they went. Is it possible that Mikhail wakes up from his sonic fence coma, notices that the village has been abandoned, sees a flare, thinks that it's from the Others new camp, and is genuinely surprised when he finds Naomi and four castaways? It would explain the look on his face when he found them.

By the way -- I think you'll all enjoy this -- the early translation of what Naomi was ACTUALLY saying when Mikhail translated her comments as "thank you for saving me, thank you for saving my life," are in fact, "I am not the only one, I am not alone." Will report more on that later on today when more accurate translations are posted somewhere.

~Radzinsky

[Challabuck]

Man, L & C could have easily called this episode Catch-22, 'cause in my mind Sun's dilemma is arguably more hellishly circular than Desmond's. At least Desmond has the ability to alter the future, however temporarily. Sun, on the other hand, faces the dual possibilities of dying honorably or living the rest of her life in utter shame. And she doesn't have a choice. The twinning in this episode with Jin's hidden shame was fantastic.

[D'zle]

I posted this on another forum and people seemed to enjoy it. So i figured i would try it out here to see what you guys think. I call it the One Theory because it's based off the movie The One.

I'm 99.9% sure this is not the case, but i still leave myself that 0.01% chance that it's true.

This theory is based on the movie called "The One" with Jet Li. While not a great movie, it's still entertaining. Anywho, basically the premise of the movie is there are multiple universes in which they refer to as a Multiverse. In each universe everyone is the same person essentially with some differences. For example, different names, different jobs and so on. Now when one of yourselves get killed their energy get divided up among the remaining living ones of you.

So i went ahead and applied this logic to the "two timelines" theories going on. Think of the Losties as Universe A. The plane crashes, 48 survived and are stuck on an island. Now Universe B is where the new chick Naomi is from and i'm also thinking Desmond. And at the center of it all is the Island. The one point in space and time that intersects all universes.

While in Universe B, Flight 815 crashed, they found the wreckage and no survivors. Naomi for some reason we have yet to find out is out looking for Desmond. I'm thinking when the hatch blew, maybe opened a riff where the island became visible and they were able to pickup the Tracker on Desmonds Boat. So the Hatch blows and desmond was caught smack dab in the middle of it. No way he should have survived that. So when the hatch blew, desmond from universe B dies and the Desmond from Universe A comes in. Or is it vice versa.

But how can he have the same memories as a different Desmond? Well if you go with the fact that when one of yourselves die, their energy gets spread among the rest, then why can't their memories be part of that as well. Which could explain why in some flashbacks, you can sometimes see the expressions on the characters faces that give the impression they have no idea what is going on. So now if you imply this logic, everyone on 815 dies in universe B, memories are passed to the survivors of 815 in universe A.

This could also explain Locke and Jacks exwife. In universe B locke dies on the plane...his energy gets transfered to the Locke in Universe A which results in him being healed and is now able to walk. In universe B Jack saves Shannons dad and his ex-wife (i'm calling her that cause i can't remember her name) dies resulting in her energy being passed to the ex-wife in universe A where jack chooses to save her and not shannons dad. Because this happened Miracle Jack was able to fix her.

Like i said, i'm 99.99% sure this isn't the case and is mainly for entertainment purposes.....but it still is a possibility

[tracic67]

This was theory was brought up on another site. When we first met Mikhail at the communication place, Locke went in and started to play chess on the PC. Everyone wondered how he found the C4 then went back to the PC and played some more, won, and blew up the bldg. Juliette had said earlier when she was trying to get Jack to kill Ben, that there were more others that wanted to rebel from Ben's group. People thought that Mrs. Klugh and Mikhail are two of those people. Mrs. Klugh isn't dead (in theory) and Mikhail, knew that Locke was "good" so he trusted him and told him about the C4. Also, that Mikhail was in communication with Penny in trying to get off the island before the failsafe went down. Mikhail knew someone was coming to the island from Penny, hence why he ran towards the flare. Mikhail knew that the fence wouldn't kill him and he and Locke formed a plan to "kill him" so ben would think that both Mrs. Klugh and Mikhail were dead. That's why Mikhail took the phone last night, because he is trying to get off the island through Penny. Just a theory.

[StevenFromBarbados]

That satellite phone Mikhail was trying to steal was very important since there is no more communication stuff at the Flame Station-(thanks to Locke). I think thats all he was looking for when he followed the flare. All he wanted was to see if he can get some kind of communication device by acting as a good samaritan. Unfortunatly he also found Des, Charlie and Jin.

[Jamie (c)]

Liked the episode for the most part. Didn't really care about the Sun back story and was a little confused as I didn't realize she didn't know his lineage when they got married.

And for that matter it's hard to buy into her 'powerful' Dad not knowing, so confusing. Part of me hoped the whore would tell her that Jin's real Dad was Jack's Dad or for that matter her dad. ;)

I did like the story that 'they found flight 815 and no one survived' - it implies a conspiracy to me.

Did not like that stupid line Juliet throws out after leaving a message for Ben. It was so contrived and weakened her character. I hate you, waaaa. (sigh)

[mburkholtz]

Personally, I think that Juliet is lying to Sun about the father of her child.
Why would I think this? Well, Juliet wants off of the island, right? The only way she's going to be allowed to go home is if she "solves" the island's pregnancy problem.
What if, as a result of Sun's ultrasound, Juliet discovered that Sun conceived BEFORE arriving on the island, but tells Ben (and Sun) that it happened AFTER the crash?
This way, she would make Sun happy (in the fact that she believes Jin to be the father), but more importantly, she would (possibly) convince Ben that she "cured" Sun (after the expectant mother fails to actually die after the second trimester).
Since Juliet is the only OTHER doctor left (not counting Jack, of course), no one else on the island would be able to read the results of the ultrasound correctly. No one else would know that Sun became pregnant prior to coming to the island.
Just a rambling thought...I'm probably completely wrong...oh well...

[Experiment 626]

What's the nature of the healing? It seems we're learning enough lately to put together some real theories based on the evidence we have.

It may have taken Mikhail a few days to heal from his encounter with the fence (keeping in mind we don't actually know how long it took, but it was no more than a few days), and he says it will take a day or a day and a half for Naomi to heal. But Locke seemed to be healed almost instantly when he came to the island. My theory on that last is that the injury to Locke had itself already healed (just not perfectly), so the effects reversed almost instantly after the crash. It could also help explain why so many survived the crash -- the island quickly healed the injuries of those who didn't die right away.

The juiced up healing powers may also have to do with why pregnancies are so difficult on the island -- the more aggressive immune system attacks the fetus (why this kills the mother is still unexplained, unless it is the immune system of the fetus fighting back!). That could also be why a pregnancy that begins off the island doesn't result in death; the baby is already established and may well be afforded the same protection as everyone else, in fact.

It seems to me that all this points to the Dharma Initiative's Life Extension Project. They've developed or enhanced properties on the island that affords healing and long life under most circumstances, but it is flawed in that it prevents any new births from taking place. Perhaps this is the "sickness" -- and if it is allowed off the island and is given a chance to spread to the world, it would mean a stagnant population and the eventual effective extinction of the human race!

SSB

[Karen]

per the above comments, our view point is we are seeing from the losties eyes... being told the plane was found and they are all dead - can it be proved.. no.. so a con - yes! keep the losties from wanting to get off the island.
no i dont think there is a time line.
the others use behavior training in every form they can to get what they need.

odd issue with mikel is that he left her with them. confident she would not tell them anything.. or that she would not live long enough to give any information or she knows nothing that can damage them. she was just pigion for a drop. one way trip..
too many things to think about..
but great epi.. Jin in action and Sun too.
look out Julia is still conning.. I belive sun and ben anything to get off the island.
what a great chance. tell Ben the baby was convinced on the island, pretend you keep her alive, and get to leave..
thats my two cents worth.. as always great posts..

[biolite]

Interesting episode on the whole. Big question is wether the crash of 815 was faked or wether there was some sort of schism that created TWO copies of flight 815. One of them crashed on the island, leaving survivors. The other one crashed somewhere else, killing everyone. Maybe the island exists as some sort of pocket dimension, or a bubble in time and space. You can get in but you can't get out since we've never confirmed that people can actually leave the island.

The whole children thing is making more sense. I don't think people can leave the island. I think Ben wants children, and wants the pregnancy problem fixed so he can continue to have a soceity on the magic island that heals people in a remarkable span of time. I think they could communicate to the outside world, but cannot leave.

Perhaps Penny and her crew are working to remedy that situation, which I'm sure would piss off Ben.

~Biolite

[Radzinsky]

@ SSB/Ex. 626

Dharma Life Extension project? Was that what it was? To my knowledge, the things that Dharma was doing on the Island didn't have to do with extending an individual's life, but rather extending the life of mankind. And, at least some have reasoned, based on the Lost Experience and the "Injections" that Kelvin and Desmond were taking every 9 days or so, that Dharma was actually trying to find a virus that would kill exactly 30% of the world's population.

I think a better question to ask about Dharma, vis-a-vis last night's episode, is this -- what was the function of the Staff Hatch? The Others clearly used it to observe and treat their pregnant women. Did Dharma use it for the same purpose? Or did Dharma perhaps use it to develop whatever it is that is now preventing any pregnancies from coming to term on the Island? Also, what purpose would Dharma have for concealing a large room in the rear of the Staff Hatch? I actually think it may have been added by the Others... follow this... there's an extra room in the Staff Hatch behind a blast door that opens by a lever. The Others put a bank of lockers in front of the lever and the door, cut out the back of one of the lockers to allow the lever to show through. Open up the locker, pull the lever, and move the lockers out of the way, and there's your secret room? In other words, there was no secret room when Dharma built the Staff, but the Others tried to conceal the room from the Losties?

~Radzinsky

[Jamie (c)]

@ mburkholtz - good theory, I forgot about Juliet being Ben's padawan.

Also, I meant to mention that Patchy's return validates my theory that the Losties are not burying the dead others. I mean if they buried Patchy, it probably would have slowed his resurrection a bit (and he would have been super dirty).

So, if Mikhail isn't dead, then Ms. Clue may not be and the Flame may easily still be intact (it was rigged to blow like a Hollywood set).

[Steve Berry]

Rather than stopping the Losties from wanting to get off the island, surely telling them that "the outside world" believes that 815 had no survivors is going to make them redouble their attempts to make contact/escape. I'm now so deeply suspicious of everyone I don't even believe Naomi's first words - it's more tempting to think it's a bit of reverse psychology.

Everyone reckons that Naomi was sent in response to the purple-sky-discharge/magnetic anomaly/Flame explosion. But I reckon she found the message from Claire stuck on that gull.

[JackedupLockedown]

Okay that's briefly review the Jungle storyline

1) Mikhail is alive: This is because the fence did not kill him. He knew it would not which is why he smiled when he was tossed into it. The fence is desingned to keep Smokey out not humans as we have since learned so it makes sense that impact with the fence wouln not be fatal. Considering how much head injuries bleed, the blood around Mikhails ears last night, and the fact that he recognized Jin right away, convince me it was Mikhail and he has not come back to life.

2) Mikhail found the Losties because of the flare. He may or may not have returned to the Others' camp, I'm sure he fears the ramifications he'll surely face for failing to protect the Flame, either way he knew being the first person to find the source of that flare was very important.

3) Mikhail does not know Naomi and agreed to help the Losties so he could assess the situation and report back to a superior. He tried to steal the phone to get into good graces with whomever he fears. (Ben or Jacob most likely)

4) Naomi said "I am not alone" Unless she was singing Michael Jackson this means there is someone else living or dead on the Island which means Mikail will be looking for them starting Now.

5) Naomi said that flight 815 crashed and there were no survivors: This must mean that the crash was faked. I don't like the thory but it can be explained, and other potential scenarios leave far to many holes to ever be adaquetly filled so I am convinced the "crash" was staged. And Yes I bet Ben had something to do with this, but I still don't think he knew that plane was crashing. Whoever or whatever crashed the plane knew Ben would be to tempted to keep the survivors there and alive once he saw a Spinal Surgeon and several potential experiment Mothers had survived.

Let the Games Begin, this is a game changer, I don't like it but I have faith.

Excuse me I think I'm LOST

[ebonX]

Check out the EW.com review for D.O.C. ...

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20036876,00.html

Just a funny note on this review ... In it, Christine makes references to both the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle & Schrodinger's Cat (paradox), which were discussed recently in on a previous LOSTcast discussion thread.

[JackedupLockedown]

@RADZ

I agree with you about the Dharma\Others staff hatch thing.

I think this adds further creedence to the fact that the Others were hiding things from someone well before the Losties ever got to the Island.

Remember Ben cautioning Mikhail as he approached the flame. Mikhailn monitering the Pearl from the Flame, The fake village, fake beards, and ragged clothes. Walt saying they're not who they say they are. Just tons of info cluing us into the idea that there is another group which they fear or at least try to avoid.

[Steve Berry]

What do we think of the Paik logo, by the way? I'm personally not a fan of this "only six days to the tsunami" countdown, as I feel that writing in a real-world tragedy to a largely trivial fictional story is in somewhat poor taste (i.e. I don't care how it affects Kate, Jack, Sawyer, etc., I care about how it continues to affect millions of real life families).

However, the "P" on Paik does look rather like a huge wave, doesn't it?

[Lorne]

Just thinking about a bit of a contradiction in Juliet and Sun's conversation about the baby. Jules said that the heartbeat might be stronger if the baby was further along, and the the heartbeat was very strong.
Can someone please tell me when a baby's heartbeat is strong, and if it's around 8 weeks or if that heartbeat correlates to a more advanced baby.
Ignoring the island's healing power of course :)

[Johnson]

I'm with the group that thinks Mikhail was heading to the beach and the wire to either get off the island or to go to another station. The flare was their way to let him know to come on out.

[badger_moldy]

Repost from other thread:

Re: Mikhail

What if the Mikhail that was pushed into the sonic fence was Smokey? Just a thought.

Re: Everyone being 'dead'

If Desmond not pushing the button was what caused some sort of rift or tear in the space-time continuum, what were the results of the 'sky going purple'? And what caused Naomi's chopper to go down? Were there other pilots/passengers? A lot of unanswered questions after the episode.

Re: Kate Pregnant?

With all the intercourse on the island between Jin/Sun, Kate/Sawyer, Juliet/Goodwin, etc...and without sounding crass... When in doubt, pull out.
Or if the timeline is correct...
In December, gift wrap your member.

But there are repercussions that go along with coitus interruptus...

[badger_moldy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onan

[Oaktown_Funk]

Is it just me, or did Sun's Dad get his eye fixed?
I swear everytime he's been shown, he has one eyed shut or squinting big time, except for this episode.
Maybe it's just a nervous/anger thing.

[Radzinsky]

@ Jackie

Good to see you today. Great episode, huh?

Your posts made me realize / reminded me of a few things

(1) Mikhail almost certainly was in such a rush to leave the Losties because he knew that Naomi uttered "I am not alone." He's out there to find the other parachutist, figuring that she's critically important.

(2) I have forgotten all about the nonsensical costumes the Others wore. You're so right to bring it up again. Why the deceit? Even before the Losties crashed? Could it have been just for the benefit of whatever Dharma folk were left? Radzinsky, Kelvin, Desmond, et al, to make them think that there really were Hostiles on the Island? But let's not also forget that the costumes were Dharma issue. Why would Dharma have the costumes?

Now then, maybe with you back on the board today we can streamline the discussion on here a bit. I'm seeing the following issues come out of last night's episode for discussion:

(1) What Was The Real Fate of Flight 815?

Did the Others stage the crash or are we messing with multiple timelines? If it's a big 'ol con, did the Others start the con when the Losties boarded Flight 815, implying a much deeper level of involvement in who was on the flight and why, or did they just take advantage of the crash once it happened and cover it up?

If we're in a messy timeline situation (I hope not), does this mean that the Island is at the nexus of all reality all timelines and all subspace disturbances and that's why Naomi can parachute from one reality where everyone on 815 is dead into a reality where some of 815 survived? Is the Enterprise going to fall from the sky next? Is Jacob really a clone of Jean-Luc Picard? You decide. (See why I don't like the alternate reality/timeline explanation?)

(2) Where Do Juliet's Loyalties Lie?

Looking back on the debate we were all having on where Juliet's loyalties truly lay, I think we can now say that no one was right and no one was wrong. Yes, she's acting on Ben's orders. But it also seems abundantly clear, after last night, that she's doing so under some form of duress. I predict that Ben has found some form of leverage over her, perhaps by threatening Juliet's sister or niece in some way. The whole "I hate you line" was unprompted, unsupervised and therefore reliable.

I think we also get insight into Juliet's personality from her treatment of Sun. There have been many instances in Juliet's backstory and her recent Island behavior in which she has been compassionate and kind. She may genuinely care for Sun and Sun's baby -- she may also genuinely have wanted to help Claire, understanding that the implant was dangerous. It's safe to assume that Juliet is not a thoroughly evil person and we're allowed to see her kind acts for what they are.

Last night's events also allow us to believe that Juliet's actions in trying to kill Ben were genuine and not part of a bigger plot to decieve Jack into trusting her.

(3) What's Up With Jack?

I'm still in the camp that says that Jack knows more about what's going on than he communicates -- and his seemingly odd actions are a result of it. At first I thought it was because he knew that Juliet was a plant and he was going along with it. Last night's quiet checkup with Sun could be Jack's way of making sure that the pregnancy is going along well -- without Juliet's input -- since Juliet could be dealing with Sun for her own purposes, from Jack's point of view.

On the other hand, remember all those secret talks that Jack and Juliet had while in the Others' compound? Remember all that stuff about leaving together? Now that we know that Juliet is still pretty anti-Ben, could Jack be a part of a double-cross, where Juliet and Jack get the last laugh against Ben? But that their plan requires some sort of secrecy?

(4) Claire, Sun, and now... Kate?

Do we all agree that the chances that Kate is pregnant are pretty high? I don't know, maybe Sawyer figured out a way to get the polar bear food machine to distribute a condom or something, but I think odds are that he and Kate did the nasty without any protection. Given that Sawyer's already a manly man (not just the attitude -- he knocked up Clancy in his backstory and has a little Clementine running around), his sperm count, at 5x normal levels, has to be through the roof.

We have some other indications as well that Kate is likely pregnant: (1) Ben suggesting to Juliet that they would have new "volunteers" for their experiments soon; (2) Ben's warning to Kate that the next "two weeks" were going to be very hard for her at breakfast -- i.e. conception with Saywer leads to death; (3) the two are placed in side-by-side cages from which Kate can easily escape; (4) Kate is made to perform hard labor in a tiny little sun dress right next to Sawyer... Let's just say that Ben seemed to be setting things up for a little romance. That, and Juliet was trying to get samples from all the female Losties. Interesting.

(5) Who was with Naomi?

Could it be Penelope? If KGB Bakunin finds her first, could she become a captive of the Others? Will they know they have a Widmore daughter in their hands? Interesting.

Love to hear everyone's responses on these topics.

~Radzinsky

[SMKGrl]

Just in case anyone needed another lost website, and hasn't yet found Mac Slocum's reviews, here's an example of his wit from when Juliette was explaining the secret room's purpose to Sun....

"It's where we brought the women to die," Juliet says quietly.

Nice. C'mon in and let's take a looksie at that demon spawn of yours!

Hilarious.
http://www.filmfodder.com/tv/lost/archives/003832.shtml

[Lost in Reno]

The tsunami talk is pointless. I don't think it's going to be a factor in the show at all. Look at a map. The tsunami was in Indonesia, the island is near Fiji. All of Australia and a large portion of the Pacific are between the two. Also it would be kind of crass to adapt a tragedy of that magnitude for a TV show.

[Symbha]

Neat episode... as usual (n) answers, and (n+2) questions.

Some thoughts:

- Mikhail's head injury @ the fence, is very reminiscent of Claire's sudden medical condition. I'm not sure, Mikhail is referring to his own condition when he talks about the island's healing powers. I agree that it's easily possible that's what he's referring to. But was he dead or not? Did they check a pulse?

- For that matter, we should suspect Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Sayid, Michael, and Walt, as well as all the others of having similar implants.

- If the fence is really not lethal to humans, was Juliette's entry of the code all part of the illusion? It should be noted that the fence did in fact make a crazy noise when a human was pushed through it. And no noise otherwise walking all over it.

- I am convinced the crash was staged. (But it would only take an episode or two to convince me otherwise. A multiverse explanation means literally, all bets are off, you know? all the flashbacks, etc. everything you see is questionable then.)

- I think Naomi is in fact from Penny, not Ben. TPTB confirmed that only 2 copies of that picture, suggesting Naomi has Penny's (or, copies of Penny's.) Who else is with her?

- Did Hurley really dial up his Mom?

- I'm starting to like the Hobbit. So far, he and Sayid are the only ones that have a reasonable reaction to the Others, considering where they are and what has happened. That said, I think it was the right thing to do, for Desmond to release our russian friend. From the standpoint of "good people" vs. "bad people" it could be important.

just some thoughts...

[Sphere]

Naomi said that flight 815 crashed and there were no survivors. Everybody are giving explanations for that, it surely invites lots of wild conspiracy theories, I will give mine.

As I said once before, I prefer the simplest explanation possible. I don't believe there is Time travel/forsight at all with Desmond. I believe this is monster/Island induced imagery and effecs.

As for the plane, what is the simplest way to tell the world that a plane crashed and there are no survivors? Well, one can go about diving, or maybe using the sub, take some pictures of the tail section (which crashed on the open sea and it is now underwater), or the fuselage that were washed out of the beach by the waves. If you are able to get some clear pictures of the airplane registration numbers, make it sound like you were a lucky curious divers and voila. You could even use the sub to relocate the tailsection to somewhereelse more convenient, maybe.

Better still: maybe a fisherman might get some seats floating in deep sea (make somewhere where it is 8000 ft deep) a week after the crash, with some flight tickets, ids and/or body parts, you put there/make him get there, from somebody people will know it is from someone onboard flight 815. In both cases, you tell the world a fake, reasonable inacessible location, and nobody will look for it.

This way, the Island location is safe after the hatch explosion, and nobody will bother the submarine station/Dharma Herarat/airport hangar with questions. No need for crazy time line theories or surely expensive staging.

What do you guys think?

[Symbha]

Oh ya...

I don't know what to make of Jack's behavior.

If he's in the know, it makes much more sense, for him to include at least one or two other people, to support his wacky insistence on inviting the enemy into their home.

Is he so proud that it has to be "because he says so?" If he's trying to play the Others somehow, cooperation has a much more likely chance of success. Is this more of Jack's bad judgements in his life?

Anyway, I struggle to understand Jack's behavior as rationale, unless his alliance is with Ben.

[Cihan]

1] I took Naomi's "I'm not alone" to mean she's being followed by more people, not that they're already on the island, but I guess on the island makes more sense...

2] It took me a couple minutes after Mikail appeared before I realised..."Wait a minute, he's not dead!!!"

3] I prefer grand conspiracy over split timelines. Dont mind either way though, I'm a fan of sci-fi and thrillers.

4] Someone above made a great point about the risk of the island's nature being extended to the rest of the world, which would mean the extinction of the human race. I guess that would make a good last season threat to make the plot more fast-paced.

5] Loved the flashback, some great symbolism and symmetry going on and of course fantastic acting. And of course it felt more Catch-22-ish.

6] @ Radzinsky. Great point about Ben creating the opportunity between Kate and Sawyer for her to get pregnant, thats quite genius actually if true. So not only is Ben using two Losties to make one cooperate to save his life, but he's using the other two to further his ultimate aim at the same time. Genius.

7] Once Hurley tells everyone what Naomi said, I'm sure Kate will perk up.

[Mark B]

OK I posted a couple of times in the previous thread -- which I noticed ended on 108 posts -- but having read all the posts above I have the following comments to make in a random order ... sorry it's a bit long .....

@mbukholtz : excellent thinking. I had not thought of Juliet being so deceptive. However Juliet said Sun was about 8 weeks pregnant (2 months) so Jules will be on the island for at least 7 more months, no way Ben will let her go until the baby is born and even then I can't see Ben letting her go until the experiment is repeated so Jules is stuck anyway.

Kate may NOT be pregnant. It depends on when in her cycle she is. If she's late in her cycle she won't be fertile not matter how fertile Sawyer is she won't get pregnant. Same applies if she is early in the cycle. There are only so many days in the 28 days that she'll be fertile. However if she and Sawyer keep making the double backed animal she will be pretty damn quick. Oh and who ever said about pulling out -- that is the worst form of contraception ever. I bet Juliet and Goodwin were using Dharma brand condoms.

The plane crash can't be a time line issue. As someone said Naomi can't just jump from timeline to timeline (or can she ?) TPTB have said before that not only is it not purgatory but time travel will not be in the show. They called the Des episode a one-off "step outside the box". Therefore the plane crash happened as we saw it but some nefarious agency staged it somewhere else.

When Naomi said "they found the wreckage" I assumed she meant the FAA. If the wreckage was placed in a 'good' location by Widmore/Dharma or whoever (i.e. very deep water where it would be found by sonar) then as long as there were enough bits and maybe a body or two and some flotsam and jetsam in the area then whoever staged it would not need to have a whole plane or that many bodies. It would be assumed that everyone was dead.

Naomis "I'm not alone" I took to mean that she was a passenger and the piklot was in the helicopter. This would explain how she ejected -- she jumped out and the pilot moved the helicopter. So is the pilot in the ocean or did he/she bail out too ?

Juliet just wants off the island. She does not care what she has to do to get off. She hates Ben for who he is but more for what he has turned her into but she is willing to side with him as he is her best hope of getting off the island.

Is who Jins father turns out to be going to be important or is this just another Daddy issue ?

Why didn't Sun do the little speech about her family to Jins mother at the start ? To answer my own question she was trying to keep up the façade that she (Sun) did not know what her father did (be a mobster not make cars). I thought it would have been better for Sun to meet Jins mother later at night when no one was around and have Sun knock her off wall into the canal to drown but that may have been a bit far fetched.

It is Suns fault that Jin is an enforcer and has become what he is. He seemed happy being a floor manager. Up until now I figured he'd been the one to make the choice to have a career change.

Mikhail is alive and I'm pi**ed off about it. I like the character but I was sure he was dead. He should have been dead. It seems the islands healing powers heal everything but a gun shot to the gut. If Klughs a live as well then that theory goes up in smoke. Could anyone else we've seen die still be alive ? Boone wasn't shot. Niki and Paulo weren't. Why does the island not heal the mothers ?

Des letting Mikhail go the first time was acceptable. But after he tried to steal the phone is just bizarre. Des is acting odd. Why ? Desmonds reactions to things just seemed a bit off to me. Not just Mikhail but the whole Naomi thing.

I thought Jack was just being nice when he went to chat to Sun. I assumed he did not know what would happen when with the illness and was checking up on her like a doctor would.

[JenC]

The thing that strikes me the MOST from the whole show is Desmond. He doesn't feel like he's one of our Losties. He says "You've killed more of them than they have of you."

So his loyalties like squarely with himself. And that could make things interesting!

[JackedupLockedown]

A few things to think about along relevant lines...

1) Are we sure men are five times more fertile on the Island?
Juliet says this after Sun tells her Jin was infertile.
Is it possible that Juliet planned to lie to Ben and tell him she concieved on the Island, allow the Baby to be born (which she knows will happen because of Claire's child) and use that as her ticket off the Island? In OTHER words, She finished what she came there to do, or at least she will have convinced Ben of as much.

The major flaw I find with that Theory is Juliet knows what those people are capable and they would eventually find out her double cross and most likely hit her with a bus. Still I think t must be considered.

2) Were Kate and Sawyer selected by Ben because of their past to be the "test couple" involuntarily. In other words they were "bad people" so they were disposible.

I have a newly evolved theory as you might imagine based on that nights episode that I want to hash out before the end of the day, so as soon as I can ignore work again I will get to that.

[Cihan]

@ Mark B:

#] I also agree that Juliet lying about the father of the baby does not help her in anyway, but more importantly it would rob the scene, and the episode, of emotional impact.

#] How Naomi got to the island I'm still not sure about, cant wait to hear an explanation from her. If the pilot was still in the cockpit, then perhaps we could see an episode where characters attempt to locate the chopper and we'll literally see where the cable goes, etc.

#] It was a good twist to see Sun responsible for Jin's promotion, their entire relationship is really tragic and complex. I think its only fitting for her to die and the baby to survive for Jin to raise, its actually ironic how tragic their entire story is because the most favourite genre that Koreans love is melodrama. I've been watching Korean films since 2000 and I've noticed 99% of them try to make you cry, or have a deep undercurrent of sadness.

#] I think the island's healing powers is a major debate now on the Net, alot of people are frustrated. I think we really need to understand how it works before the season is out because, although I'm not personally frustated yet, I am getting confused. I dont like that because contrary to popular opinion, Lost is usually coherent not confusing.

[biolite]

@ Island Healing powers

I still maintain that the island cannot heal everyone. Way back in the last season we saw Bernard and Rose meeting Issac in Australia. Issac said that certain places on the planet are special and they will heal certain people. Clearly the island is one of those places. Issac couldn't heal Rose, but the island did. The island couldn't heal Ana Lucia, Boon, Shannon, Libby, but it did heal Rose, Locke and apparently Mikhail.

If the island increases a mans spermcount by 5 times, it's concievable that it could also increase a persons strength as well, which could explain the "super-strength" we see in the others.

[my-2-cents]

@ RADZ, etc

Credible translations of Naomi's mumblings here:
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/D.O.C.
(subtopic "Naomi's languages")
&
Here
http://lost.cubit.net/viewEgg.php?id=278
(also click "COMMENTS")

@ RADZ, Jackie

It was DHARMA that constructed a secret room in the Medical Hatch to hide their research (etc) from The Hostiles in case of an ambush. Roger (van-man) probably stashed his DHARMA brews in the lockers. Only after The Purge did Tom (etc) commandeer the secret room for their own purposes and the lockers for storing Flinstones outfits. Later, they locked up & covered their tracks ahead of the Losties. DHARMA probably used the costumes early on to fake out The Others.

@ Jackie, tracic67 et al

Mikhail probably went running to investigate the flare 'cause Ben told him to, just like he sent Etahn & Goodwin to both 815 crash sites. After he "healing" he caught up with Ben's merry band in the forest, camped out in tents like Jacob's 12 sons/tribes.

@ ebonX,

We could all have jobs at EW.com,
but I'm happy not to tempt "Heisenberg" myself.

@ Steve Berry,

I'm with you on the PAIK logo.
I also pictured some kind of WORMHOLE representation.

Doc Waxman

[Anthony Martin]

I think Flight 815 was *reported* as being found with no survivors. Which means that governments are involved in covering up the location of the Island.

[Sobaika]

Random Theory:

The Others think Sawyer and Kate are bad, maybe this means the Others have no hesitation in treating them however they want to and experiment on them if needed. This is why Sawyer and Kate were treated differently than Jack - they were forced to break rocks and locked up in cages. Considering the fact that Juliet said that the sperm count is 5x higher on the island and that she would need to get a sample from Kate, methinks Kate and Sawyer were put together in the cages on purpose (with her wearing that dress) with the hopes that they would get together. If what Juliet was saying is true, Kate is definetely pregnant. Perhaps this was forced onto them by the Others? Also remember Ben's comment from Juliet's flashback about how he could get more women for her treatments. I think Ben figured out the ones who were expendable (aka bad) and hatched a plan to see if he could get more pregnant women on the island.

[Jin Kwon Do]

I liked Jin's moves last night. Sun's father must have trained him well.

What do we think of Paik Industries? I seem to recall that Paik Industries was tied into the Lost Experience last summer and was somehow connected to Widmore Industries via some shady dealings. It seems like the producers are setting up some of the off-island activities that effect the island. When do you think we'll actually see what the Widmore/Paik connection to the island is?

[Mke Brenner]

A few comments:
1) WTF!!! The writers have gone all out; great cliffhanger by Naomi. Is she telling the truth or is she a ringer? Does anyone have the translation of what she really told Mikhail when he said that she said "Thank You"
2) I've read alot about people saying that Alex is Ben and Rousseau's daughter and that they were saying it was inconsitent that pregnant women die and Rousseau didn't. I fondly recall that the french lady said she came to the island pregnant because i thought she had Alex within the first six months. Unless, Danielle is a fraud and is actually an other...she did give Sayid Ben, and "Expose" showed that Ben had planned that.
Just a few thoughts...can't wait until next week.

[my-2-cents]

THEORY: WHY PENNY NEVER CAME TO THE ISLAND

RADZ, I fully agree with your 2 possibilities for Naomi's 815 explanation. This may also help explain why Penny never came to the island herself.

Naomi's disbelief of Hurley's claims is genuine; her first real lucid moment following the injury. Naomi was always focused on finding Desmond & never came in search of plane crash survivors.

In D.O.C., Sun's interactions with her father is a big storytelling clue! Sun verbally threatens Paik's underworld life - secretly to save her man - & Daddy concedes the cash on some heavy conditions. Similarly, Penny FREELY uses her family's resources - to track down her man - but gets too close to Daddy's island secrets. Knowing his daughter's strong-willed nature & devotion to Desmond, Charles Widmore agrees to help Penny locate Des on the island on condition that she not step foot there herself.

C.W. may have further ordered that Penny's rescue crew (Naomi's team) be sent with as few details as possible so as not to compromise his secret investment on the island. A mega chess game between industrial magnates?

If Naomi also had orders to conceal her true mission from any other islanders, that might explain her evasive lingo when dealing with the Losties. Or, more likely she was simply delirious when mumbling in different languages. For his own cunning purposes, Mikhail clued into Naomi's statement about not being alone but I doubt Naomi was actaully passing him any secret messages. She may not realize yet that the copter(s) hit the water after she passed out in the treetops.

Did Naomi drop from a plane at higher altitude with the copter(s) as air-to-ground support? That might be whom she was supposed to call after finding Des. Or were there other parachutists?

Naomi is oblivious to the Losties' situation, and may be recalling genuine news reports of a crash recovery. Following Radzinski's brilliant logic (above), that crash site is, of course, either a cover up (by Widmore et al, or by the Others) or part of an alternate quantum timeline.

Doc Waxman

[my-2-cents]

@ all,

ABC has some fun Michael Giacchino
material playing in their video loops,
including a look at LOST's mysterious "flapamba."
http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/index

Doc Waxman

[Harley]

Okay this is just a thought, so bear with me...If the baby IS Jin's (which I totally LOVE the theory of Juliette lying about it) it would be a miracle. Or in island terms a healing. Maybe a baby born because the island healed one of the parents is different from two normal people getting pregnant? So maybe Sun has a chance to live because of that fact? Just a thought, hope this makes sense...

[ebonX]

Great discussion!!! Where do I start ...

Re: Juliet's motives

I agree with Mark B. (et al) that Juliet is telling Sun the truth about the D.O.C. of her baby (daddy) ... (1) This Sun/Jin baby issue gives them a driving force to get off the Island. My speculation is this is the initial set-up of something that will be resolved in the Series (not Season) Finale. (2) On the flip-side, Juliet had to be telling Sun (and Ben) the truth because (a) trying to "con" Ben/Others does not seem like the brightest idea, and (b) It will take 7+ months to resolve this storyline (Juliet proving she has "fixed" the Island's baby-making issue), which is not a reasonable resolution for the show.

Re: Who is Naomi?

I have 3 possibilities for who is responsible for Naomi's arrival to the Island ... (1) She was sent by Penny in response to the Island's discovery (end of 2); (2) It is another "con" by the Others; or (3) Naomi was sent by DHARMA (or whoever) in response to the 'Enter 77' act prior to the explosion of the Flame Station.

I am leaning towards Answer #3 ... Naomi was sent by DHARMA (Hanso/Widmore/etc.) in response to 'Enter 77'. The TPTB have eluded to a War on the Island (from OLP), and this may be the start of it ... Naomi is the first of the reinforcements against the "Hostiles" (explanation for her "I am not alone" line to Mikhail) ... Also, this proves that Mikhail is the last DHARMA agent (or so he believes) on the Island. This explains his tenuous relationship with Ben (from S3E16), while also explaining why he let Locke play with the computer. Mikhail could not 'Enter 77' himself without serious repercussions from Ben. My explanation for why Naomi has a picture of Desmond & Penny is that Penny is 'piggybacking' on "Daddy's Mission" in her attempt to find Desmond. She knows where Desmond is, but does not have the means to reach him, until this latest opportunity arose ('Enter 77' = DHARMA Off-Island Distress Call).

Re: The Island - Grand Conspiracy

I agree that the Naomi's arrival on the Island and her knowledge of Flight 815 is part of some grand conspiracy/cover-up ... Although I like the multi-verse, alternate reality theorizing of the show, I just don't think TPTB can sufficiently explain that existence to people's satisfaction (Remember TPTB have stated previously that everything on the show can be explained scientifically) and I think an explanation that the Island is "Through the Looking Glass" or "Over the Rainbow" is a cop-out.

[Mark B]

@ebonX

I'm sure I heard in an OLP that TPTB denied they ever said "that everything on the show can be explained scientifically".

Also I agree about Enter 7-7 BUT as someone pointed out when I posted that theory the "comms have been down" since the purple sky event so how could the message get out. Unless there is some other super-secret method. I think Naomi is most likely from Penny but I'm not discounting Widmore, Dharma or Mittleos. I'm still mad Mikhail is alive, it's pretty close to shark jumping if you ask me.

[Chunderhead]

D.O.C. = Day 35?

I've been trying to figure this one out since watching the show last night:

On Day 88, Juliet tells Sun that the baby was conceived about 53 days ago. That means the baby was conceived around Day 35.

Looking back at the timeline, Jin and Sun separated on Day 33 after he learned that she spoke English. Maybe they were having sex prior to Day 33, but I doubt it. Their relationship was rocky even before that.

It seems like the producers went out of their way to emphasize the date of conception, even naming the episode after it, so why would they pick a date on the timeline when Jin and Sun would not be "knockin boots?" Could there be another father?

[Radzinsky]

@ ebonX

It has already been confirmed by Cuse and Lindelof that Naomi was sent by Penelope.

@ Doc Waxman

I do not think that the secret Staff hatch room was created by Dharma. I think the Others rigged the room in a special way, as I explained above: (1) get a bank of lockers, (2) cut a hole in one of the lockers so that you can get to a lever, (3) pull the level, (4) pull the lockers back, (5) open the blast door. Simple deception, not created by Dharma but by the Others.

As for what Mikhail was doing out there, I think we can be pretty sure he hasn't met up with the other Others yet, and here's why -- if he had, he would have wiped the blood away from his ears. The blood to me means that he just got up a short while ago (it's only been a few days since that) and hasn't had the opportunity to clean up yet. Here's my Occam's explanation for Mikhail: (1) he gets his eardrums blown out by the sonic fence, collapses; (2) he's in a healing coma for a few days (longer than it would take Naomi's punctured lung to heal); (3) he awakens and finds that the village is abandoned; (4) he looks around for the Others and can't find them; (5) he sees a flare go up and thinks that it's either the Others or something he definitely should investigate; (6) he is surprised to find Desmond, et al, and Naomi; (7) he learns from Naomi that she is not alone; (8) he is then in an immediate rush to leave the four castaways to find Naomi's partner, who may or may not be Penelope. Sound reasonable to you?

@ Cihan

I also thought that Sun and Jin's story was compelling last night, particularly the scene with Jin's father -- he's a great character. I can also say that my Lost watching group collectively went, "Ohhh" when Mr. Paik announced that he'd hold Jin responsible for the $100K that Sun took. Their backstory fell neatly into place. Very good storytelling, IMO.

@ biolite

I applaud you referencing Issac of Uluru in the discussion of the Island's healing powers. That could at least give us the beginning of an explanation for why, for instance, Boone dies gradually while Naomi survives a punctured lung. In Boone's case we might also consider that he was the "sacrifice that the Island demanded," and as such the Island wouldn't heal him. I also don't think the Island operates as a Wolverine-level healing factor -- i.e. you're not getting up from a gunshot wound, for example.

[Mark B]

subject: island healing
This is a most baffleing mystery .... Mikhail literally had blood spurting from his ears (and maybe coming from his nose and eyes)yet after a few days he's up and around able to fight Jin. He did way more than burst his ear drums he had some massive brain haemorage. Locke can not only walk but when his leg is scewered by the blastdoor he's walking again a few days later. Bens scratches from Sayid seemed not to heal that fast but then neither did his tumour. Rose is healed of her cancer. Naomi is lung punctured and will be better soon. YET Saywer was shot in the shoulder and spent at least two days near death before his recovery from the infection. After that he was up and running about pretty fast. Boone died, Colleen died, many people on the crash died, the marshall died -- odd one that because he was injured in a not disimilar way to Naomi -- stabbed with some sharpnel, some Others died at the hands of Eko and AL, AL died, Libby died, Goodwin died, the mothers and babies die the list goes on.

So why does the island save some and not others ? Is this all down to the Isaac of Uluru comment about certain places curing some people or is there some 'judgiing' going on like with Eko.

[ebonX]

So the EW.com article that I referenced earlier didn't really apply the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, nor Shrodinger's Cat Paradox, correctly ...

Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle - This states that for quantum mechanics (atoms, light, etc.), accuracy (relative exactness) & precision (exactness of answer given) are inverses of one another ... i.e. One can never know definitively, the exact location of anything, only the probability that it is in that precise location.

Relation to LOST - If one applies this principle to the location of the Island, then it explains why people cannot find the Island ... People think they know where the island is, but in reality, it is only an educated guess (based on probability)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisenberg_uncertainty_principle

Shrodinger's Cat Paradox - This illustrates a paradox that states that an outside observer can never know the true state of something because the observation of that something is an external factor that effects the state of that something ... i.e. "If a tree falls down in a forest, but there is no one around to witness the event, does it really make any sound."

Relation to LOST - This actually pertains more to the accuracy of Desmond's visions about the future ... In essence, how do we know that Desmond's visions are true? The future is analogous to Shrodinger's cat, while Desmond (and his viewing of the future) is the outside observer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

Sorry for the lesson in Quantum Physics, but the inaccuracy of her comparison was really bugging me ...

Stay LOST!

[Cordell Cunningham]

@ sam:

I dont think it's that strange that Juliet knew "exact numbers". She has probably done extensive testing the in laboratories on the island, including testing male sperm count.

[Lee, UK]

Mikhail running out of the jungle was definitely the best part of the episode, i nearly fell out of my seat in suprise. There are just so many possible new theories based on Mikhail and the whole 'i'm not alone' and 'there were no survivors' lines from Naomi. Very good episode, i await a theory-heavy podcast this week!

[Mke Brenner]

Just read something interesting on road runner. Stephen Hawking, the guy that gave the creepy ring lady her name and author of books about wormholes and black holes, has a world record. He has ALS, Lou Gherig's disease, and just experienced zero-G flight for the first time. He is the first person with a disability to do that. I thought that was cool and semi-relevant to LOST, he is alluded to.

[Brian]

So, Officer Heisenberg pulls over a photon on the highway. He walks up beside it and asks, "Do you know how fast you were going?" And the photon says, "No, but I know exactly where I am."

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Episode-wise I've always thought Juliet was sent there to do more research. Her original target may have been Kate (which Ben so sneakily engineered, and as was noted above, fits into their 'bad people are disposable' idea) but Sun was just an added bonus. Ever since 3x01 and the book club, I've thought the Others are just misunderstood. I really think they want to solve this baby problem... they just don't care so much about all the riffraff that crashed on their island... they arent part of the club. (How they "got" the island, or even if they are still struggling for it, is something we're nowhere close to definitively answering)

And yes, as badger mentioned above, these people need to, let's say, withdraw the attack. I thought I was the only one who thought of that. Its only been 90 days! Worry about survival as a species in a year or two. Hell, wrap it up in an aloe leaf if you have to. The last thing you need on this mysterious island with smokey and deathtraps and trigger happy others is a TODDLER.

[emma]

Biggest stab in the dark theory EVER!!!!!!!!

If the D.O.C for Sun baby was day 35 and Sun and Jin were not talking then, i think Michael could be the father!!!!!!! Remember all those looks and glances and tender hugs.They so did it! Thats why the Others let Michael and Walt go, cos they knew that sun was carrying a mini Walt with the same wonderful and weird powers.

It makes me smile anyway

[oddjob]

Just wondering... is Ben formally from DHARMA. I just get this feeling he was.

[rach]

The Others need more women and children, Desmond "suddenly" gets (curious- i.e. orders) and decides to see "what will happen" if he stops pushing the button.

Flight 815 crashes on the island- each member significant in some way to the needs of the Others- each member vulnerable. Each passenger carefully guided to take the flight. The flight attendant shortly thereafter joins the Others.

Flight 815 crashes, and Desmond befriends the Losties. He gains their sympathy, their trust. He even "saves" them from what he sees as their end- albiet putting Charlie in each situation in which he supposedly forsees his death- and then saves him at the very last second rather than beforehand- he can change the future only at the last minute?

Desmond lets enemies go,under the guise of I gave "my word". Didn't he seem to know Mikeal? Wouldn't you be angry after years of being trapped on an island you were a pony for?

He is the long con.

The plane was destined to crash only because the Others and those associated with them caused it, planned it, and covered for it's loss. Carefully chosen people who are lost, whom no one is looking for, they are only looking for themselves.

And Desmond IS an Other.

[col_mustard]

rach,

I concur.

Desmond is an Other.

Col Mustard

[Steve Berry]

Two things we've never seen and I now wonder why:

1) What really happens if you don't enter the numbers. What would've happened if Desmond hadn't "blown the dam". Things were going pretty haywire in the hatch but we never got to see 'em play out to their natural conclusion.

2) When we saw the 815 crash from the point of view of The Others, there was a lot of "looking around in the sky" for the plane. Then Ben, Juliet and everyone suddenly turn to the point in the sky where they (and we) see it. Is it possible it simply "appeared" - i.e. popped through from another dimension? How come we never hear or see other planes? Surely there are planes visible (even miles and miles above) no matter which tropical island you're stuck on? (Unless your tropical island is stuck inside a time bubble at the South Pole - heh heh.)

[Mark B]

@Steve Berry

1. I assume you mean not turning the key rather than not entering the numbers -- we know what happened when the numbers did not get entered. Good question. I assumed we'd have seen some kind of uncontrolled implosion as opposed to the 'controlled' one we got. Perhaps the end of the world. The number pushing released the build up of the magnetic anomaly in a safe way so that there wasn't an 'incident'. I thought it was preventing a sudden magnetic polar switch. Question is what is stopping the build up now ? Has the magnetic force been destroyed ? In which case why not just let the implosion happen earlier, it seemed not to have any reeal effect other than messing up the electronics on the isalnd -- guess it made the island visible for a while too which may have been the real reason.

2. I assumed that the plane 'popped' through the 'bubble' that hid the island from the outside world. However I'm sure there are places in the Pacific Ocean that planes never fly over. Most planes fly very specified routes and the Pacific is a big place.

And a final point I think Sun may be OK as the island wants her to have kids. If we believe that the island heals some people for a reason and lets others die (I'm having some trouble with who it heals and who it lets die and what kind of injury it will fix and what it won't/can't -- I'm thinking that it does some kind of checking and decides -- Ben did not get cured but Mikhail did, Sawyer, Namoi, and Micheal all got fixed but the marshal didn't) then it would seem that it healed Jin so he could have kids too. I got the impression that Jin was totally infertile and had a sperm couint of zero so just multiplying his count by five will make no difference. However he could have had a very low count and then the natural "fertility boosting powers" of the island would account for it so Sun is dead then.

I think Des knows Mikhail, maybe from his future seeing or maybe from the past, but I don't think he is an Other like Ben etc are Others. I think we've seen too much backstory for Des to make him an Other. I've been wrong before though.

[Experiment 626]

I don't know -- I'm a little doubtful that Kate is pregnant. My main reasons are that I think they'll avoid it for storytelling purposes. Sun is already pregnant, so the "pregnancy which begins on the island" angle is covered; I'm not sure they'd want the same circumstances for two characrers (although the fact that it would be Sawyer's child is a very different situation). If Jack didn't already know that Kate and Sawyer were intimate, then I'd be more inclined to believe it -- but he does know. Also, pregnancy would sooner or later limit the character's participation in action-oriented storylines, and I think I'd not want that if I were doing the writing. But then again, Sun is about two months along, and she has a couple of months in island time before the death angle will have to be addressed -- and the show could literally end before that.

I could easily be wrong, but I guess we'll see.

SSB

[Radzinsky]

Desmond is an Other? Umm... I'm not going to get on board with that one.

Desmond knows Mikhail? Possibly... there were some odd looks between them. But we know that Kelvin didn't let Desmond leave the Swan Hatch for nearly 3 years, and the first time Des left was the afternoon that he "killed" Kelvin. That doesn't give you a lot of time to explore the Island and meet the Others. More likely, I believe the Others know Desmond -- Mikhail from the Flame Station and others watched him from the Pearl.

I do believe that Desmond will have an interesting relationship with the Others and I also believe that they are interested in him (note Juliet's glare at the end of last week's episode). I have some vague idea that Brother Campbell and Ms. Hawking are somehow aligned against Jacob and the Others and they are guiding Desmond towards that conflict -- but who knows.

Old Theory: remember a few weeks ago, I theorized that the Others controlled Smokey/Cerberus? Well, reconsider that idea in the context of the new information about Flight 815. Let's say that someone (the Others) is trying to convince the outside world that Flight 815 crashed and there were no survivors... what's the first thing you'd want to do? Find the cockpit and take out the pilot, right? Maybe our friends had Smokey do that?

(Yes, I know they also have a sonic fence to keep Smokey out, but maybe that's because it's a security system that fails sometimes -- i.e. the "incidents" that are mentioned on the blast door map?)

Consider also that if you were trying to convince the world that Flight 815 really crashed with no survivors, you would most definitely try and keep phones, radios, walkie talkies and sailboats out of the hands of the survivors who were supposed to be dead...

Looking forward to discussing today...

~Radzinsky

[steve]

Guys, first post here so hope this hasn't been discussed before. Was browsing Wikipedia looking at different Time theories, specifically those that involved electromagnetism and found this.

Take a look at it. I'm going to re-read it and put some meat on its bones specifically with ragrds to stuff we have seen in Lost. Could have some good explanations, specifically the quantum computer that can generate virtual reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabric_of_Reality

[ebonX]

@Radz - I just listened to the last OLP (4/19) again and DL's confirmation that Naomi was sent to the Island by Penny was a tepid confirmation at best ... It was more of a "sure ... that makes sense logically" answer, not a "definitive YES", imho. I took this to mean that TPTB want us to think that 'Naomi was sent to the Island by Penny to find Desmond'. This seems like a set-up by TPTB for some major twist later on.

@Mark B., rach, et al - Re: Desmond = Other

Desmond did see Mikhail on the Pearl station monitor (S3E5), so maybe that is where he recognizes him from. I re-watched the Ep. D.O.C. last night and Desmond's interactions with Mikhail did seem strange ... My guess is that Mikhail is part of Desmond's "Flash Forward", so he needs to let Mikhail go for some future act that must be done, in order for Desmond to reach Penny.

@Steve - Re: "Fabric of Reality"

Here is a nice little excerpt from the Wikipedia article on the "Fabric of Reality" that seems to be very applicable to LOST (wrt Time, Causation, and Free Will) ...

What the multiverse adds to a block time theory is an attenuated account of common sense's ideas of causation and free will. Although an effect can't be changed by its cause, the counterfactuals that causal statements support are true. If the cause hadn't occurred, the effect would not have occurred. For the multiverse, which is "to a first approximation" a very large number of co-existing and slightly interacting spacetimes, includes universes in which the cause doesn't occur and its effect doesn't occur. And although the "me-copy" in this spacetime could not have done otherwise, there are me-copies in other worlds that actually do otherwise (thus, the common-sense idea that, in choosing one course of action, one refrains from another, is not retained). There is a branching of these me-copies that validates my sense that my future is open, in contrast to spacetime physics. However, the open future of common sense is a myth. There is no flow of time dividing the actualities of the past from the unactualized potentialities of the future.

An intellectual descendant of David Hume via the paternity of Popper, Deutsch is not only a critic of induction but also a Humean about causation, to the degree that he rejects the idea of a causal power effecting a change, in favor of construing it as a multiverse regularity. So A causes B means something like After A-copies occur in many nearby parallel worlds, including the one in this world, B-copies occur. This regularity supports counterfactuals that accompany true causal claims, such as If A hadn't happened, B would not have taken place. There are affinities to Hume's constant-conjunction understanding of causation and Popper's deductive-nomological account.

Now for a crazy theory, based on ideas from "The Fabric of Reality" ... Desmond (post-Hatch implosion) is no longer bound to a linear time-space. He did actually travel back in-time (in S3E8) and his conversation with Ms. Hawking did change something in the multiverse timeline, an alternate timeline where he did not stop pushing the button & therefore Flight 815 did not crash on some Island (rather it crashed in the South Pacific somewhere). Now this leads me to believe that the Island is a central node to the multiverse (where the Island exists as a singular event throughout all the multiverses). If you think of the Island & all the events that occur on it (wrt its existence in the multiverse) as the base of a tree, with the roots being various multiple past events, while the branches are various multiple future events.

Man, my brain hurts ... That's enough thinkin for a Friday morning. Stay LOST!

[chris in oly]

Re: Jacks Actions

Jack seemed really manipulative in the episode. Trying to set people off, not giving any real explanations so people try to figure it out, and such. It seems to be the New Jack - he did not tell Sun about the pregnancy issues, but set her up to seek out Kate and Juliet to see what would happen. He can deny any involvement to Juliet, but got to test her. I am HOPING that Jack is not a trusting fool, but secretly testing everyone to see what is going on. My theory would be that Jack believes there is another Other in the Lostie camp that they do not know about. I never trusted that Frogurt guy ;-)

Re: Cerebus and Crashing Planes
We have seen that the smoke monster/cerebus cannot leave the ground. We have not seen any flying creatures. Boats and subs can reach the island without serious incident or destruction. So what is knocking out planes as they fly overhead? We have seen the drug running small plane, Gale's balloon, Flight 815, and now Naomi's flying craft get pulled down violently. We heard the helicopter sound for Naomi's aircraft, but could that be a new smoke monster of the sky or a sound like a forcefield or something else? Did we hear those noises in the Flight 815 flight? Why does the island hate aircraft?

[jg]

@ Steve Berry,
Theory:
The Island has a great and ostensibly growing magnetic field generation capacity. The DHARMA initiative developed a means of “Degaussing” the field. How this was done earlier…I do not know. An uncontrolled shift in the magnetic poles may indeed have catastrophic effects on our planet. This may cause us all to die…as Ms Hawking suggested. Thus, entering the numbers was a degaussing process. Without this degaussing, the magnetic field will now grow until it results in planetary catastrophe.

The field will grow. First knocking out local ‘high tech’ devices, e.g. helicopters, jets, submarines…then…who knows…

Perhaps the magnetic field was held in check by some native worship practices that the Dharma Initiative saw as primative superstition and convinced the natives of their "folly".

[Mark B]

@jg and Steve Berry

So now the deguassing can't be done what will stop the magnetic field from getting stronger and stronger ?Something does because it's been way over 108 mins since the last degauss and we've not had another purple sky. Assumption is that the fail safe destroyed the magnet but why not do that before ?

*thinks for a minute*

Ah, before the purple sky event DHARMA could come and go from the island whenever they wanted using the sub and they had comms. Since the purple sky there has been no comms and no way to get back if you leave (according to Ben but has anyone actullay tried to leave -- probably not as they had the sub). DHARMA want to keep the island and be able to still pop out to the 'real world' but at the present time they can't.

But then what bought down Naomis helicopter ? Some other defense mechanism ? Did it just happen to breakdopwn ? And how did the helicopter get to the island without someone forgetting to press the button like Des and 815 ? How did it pierce the 'bubble' ? If the 'bubble' exists what is it and how does it hide the island ? Up until the purple sky event I always thought that the Swan station was somehow hiding the island using some magnetic property I don't understand. Is there another hatch somewhere that has the 'purpose' of keeping the island hidden ?

Oh and please please please don't let this go totally sci-fi and become just another 'time travel/time paradox/multiple universe' show. That would be so cliche and I expect more from TPTB.

[jg]

Subject: another wild haired theory,

Brother Campbell, Ms Hawking and the Others are Templars. They are protecting us all from some godawful fate...death...intergalactic slavery...whatever...

Templars:
Only special noble people are welcome
Still function in secret
International
Financial/resource rich
Militaristic
Last known vestage of the Templars was a Portuguese Catholic Order: "The Order of the Cross".
Brother Campbell's cross was a Templar cross

[jg]

@ Mark B (kinda),
Theory:
Yes, Dharma (or whoever they are now) had some reliable way to get to and from the island prior to the purple sky event.Since then, no.

Penny got a momentary "coordinate fix" when the hatch exploded.

Penny calls up Naomi (et al?).
Penny: "Hey Naomi I have a job for you"
Naomi: " You mean that one we have been planning for?"
Penny:" Yeah"
Naomi: "So?"
Penny " I want you to take my big fancy boat, the one with the helocpter to the South Pacific."
Naomi: 'Where exactly?"
Penny: "4.815 degrees south, 162.342 degrees east (or west?) "
Naomi looks at map...: there's nothing there and not for 1000 kilometers!"
Penny: "Trust me there is an island."

The island is actually a giant atoll. The only way to get to the inner island portion is to go over it or under it.
They may be unaware that the growing magnetic field will render their usual navigation epuipment useless.And, like I said earlier the magnetic feild may cause fancy high tech machines to malfunction.

[Steve Berry]

The more theories I read, the more I'm led to believe that the island is in some way the "keystone" which holds together the fabric of the earth/universe, i.e. the single stone that, if removed, would cause total collapse. Thus it is the biggest single point where energy/time/space are held together for the rest of us. Or, if you prefer, the cradle of life.

This kind of fits if you think of the earth or universe in terms of it being some massive bio-computer (thank you Douglas Adams!). If the island is the central point from which everything else is controlled, then perhaps it was never meant to be populated or, if it was, just for certain purposes. I have in mind that this is the place that Noah was sent with all the two-by-two animals - or maybe that was an allegory (in fact all the animals came two-by-two from this island). Hence the presence of the zoos and whathaveyou we've seen. Or it is literally the Garden of Eden, or Paradise, but seen through our eyes (and the Losties) in only very literal terms, rather than the way a deity would see it.

Bits of the show fit this theory - perhaps Dharma's various initiatives were intented to operate a subroutine on the island (the numbers and the computer, the taming of the electromagnetic force) which might channel the very forces of nature to their own ends, but they didn't really know how to with '70s technology. The idea of a keystone - at least in architecture - goes right back to the Indus Valley civilisation, which might (might!) explain the four-toed statue and evidence of other civilisations on the island. Perhaps each generation, or each major civilisation, is drawn to the island and its power and seeks to work it for its own good, i.e. the preservation of itself.

This also fits with the idea of "the box", that all life, all nature, emerges from the island and spreads outward to the rest of the world and/or real time. But it's forever generating new and exotic forms of life (the Hurley bird?) as it seeks to evolve. Thus Smokey *is* a defence mechanism, intended to protect the evolution of the earth toward some final purpose. Attempting to prevent continued evolution and stay just where we are, thank you very much, (which is what The Others would like - the whole "we are the good people", "we are the best" mentality) results in sterilisation (no more babies)? But if you get injured, well, you get better quicker.

I'm sure that there's loads that doesn't fit in to this, but as a tool of a higher force, an unexplainable island does make a sort of sense. Perhaps it may be the battleground for the ultimate forces of good and evil? Nature, mankind, whatever, versus nature. Perhaps the show is just a parable about global warming and man's seeming endless ability to destroy himself and his environment.

[my-2-cents]

@ Harley,
Nice! Yet another twist to potentially foil Ben's schemes.

@ Steve
Welcome! Great Post!
See what you started?

@ Mark B, RE: WHY NOT DESTROY THE MAGNET BEFORE?

Pretty interesting theory based on Kelvin's
explanation for the failsafe and its relation
the Valenzetti Equation, and helping mankind:
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Kelvin%27s_Dam_%28Theory%29

Doc Waxman

[my-2-cents]

@ RADZ, RE: WHAT WAS MIKHAIL DOING IN THE JUNGLE?

The question of where Mikhail had just come from when finding Naomi & company is fairly open. Both your theory & mine make perfect sense, among others. Even J. Powell leaves the question to viewers for now. "was Bakunin expecting Naomi? Why was he running to the flare?"
( http://www.powells.com/blog/?p=2030 )
The meat of my post was more about Widmore possibly restricting Penny's direct access to the island.

@ RADZ, RE: WHO CONSTRUCTED THE STAFF'S VAULTED ROOM?

Possible, once again, but I have to put a finer point on this. We've never really seen The Others construct anything; so far they appear to be scavengers living in & making good use of the wasteland facilities left behind by DHARMA.

In fact, from previews for next week, it seems they're also perfectly content to camp out in the jungle in preparation for a possible ambush on Jack's people.
They probably carried out an effective guerrilla war on DHARMA from the wilderness once upon a time, like Ghengis Khan moving in from the Steppes, or like the pastoral Israelites' siege of Jericho.

It seems whenever The Others' secrets are threatened they simply vanish & cover their tracks. For now, that Secret Room just seems like another ready-made resource conveniently used & left behind until it becomes useful again, like the Pearl Station's cameras.

Doc Waxman

[Radzinsky]

@ Doc Waxman

Agreed, we haven't seen the Others build anything -- all I suggested was that they could put a bank of lockers in front of a door and make it seem like a secret room.

On Mikhail -- the only thing I'm basing my theory on where he came from is that there is still blood around his ears. I'm thinking that if he met up with Ben and everyone first, he'd have had a chance to wash up a bit.

@ Mark B and others discussing Magnetism

I'm actually fine with a theory that says there's some sort of magnetic field around the Island that needed to be dispersed or degaussed or whatever -- but all of these theories miss a MAJOR point -- if all you have is a standard, consistent magnetic field, why not let a computer disperse the buildup every 108 minutes? Why does it require human interaction? While I am not rejecting your theories out of hand, I do think that any theory that fails to account for why there had to be a *decision* by a human to push the button every 108 minutes is incomplete.

@ Steve Berry

I posed the center-of-the-multiverse theory of the Island above -- the notion that it's a nexus of timelines and/or dimensions, etc. -- but let me ask you -- do you like this theory? In other words, if that was the explanation for the Island's power, would you be satisfied with it? I, for one, hope this is not where the story takes us, because it sounds too Star Trekky -- Lost has always been more grounded than that -- and I am in no hurry to see whether Worf of Juliet would win in hand-to-hand combat.

@ jg

This is similar to my "Island is in the Antarctic" theory that I posted last week -- the central idea being that the Others' submarine has to go under SOMETHING before getting to the Island. You think it's an atoll, I think it's ice. In fact, I think that Penelope got a call from the Antarctic listening station after the EM pulse was detected, and the helicopter carrying Naomi (and someone else, apparently) took off from somewhere nearby. Of course, helicopters take off and land on big ships all the time, and the helicopter crashing wouldn't be the first time that a short-range aircraft strangely crashed on the Island (Yemi's plane).

Perhaps the Island itself moves?

Anyone know what Krakatoa is?

~Radzinsky

[Radzinsky]

Random thought...

We need to stop celebrating the 50th, 100th and 200th posts, and START celebrating the 4th, 8th, 15th, 16th, 23rd, and 42nd posts -- maybe also the 108th. Agreed?

[KrisCarlson]

Do The Healing Powers Of The Island Seem A Little Inconsistant
Marshall hunk of shrapnel in the gut
Shannon one shot to the Stomach
Boone maybe a bit more serious with internal bleeding
Libby shot
Anna Lucia shot
I'm Probably forgetting other ones but yeah If you beleiv that Mikhail was telling the truth about Naomi Healing In a day or maybe a day and a half or that he recovered from his brain being exploded

So My Theory is That The Others Come into the camps secretly at night after people are buried and dig them up and they get healed I guess Goodwin still being in his grave when they dug it up is evidence of that being bullshit bit it could be that he just wasn't on "A Good Person" just seems a bit odd that Naomi can heal a punctured lung in a day but Libby can heal a little Bullet in the gut but I guess Naomi didn't get caught Drinking and Driving

So Yeah My Theories SUCK

www.myspace.com/dudeyourmybroright

[Mark B]

subject: secret room

Why would Dharma have the secret room ? I don't think it's just for the women to die in. I mean why ? What's the point when they have a operating theater ?

What did they tell everyone else back in Othersville when the women didn't come back ? "Oh it's ok Sabine's just gone back to the mainland to have her kid but she;'s never coming back" Actually why didn't they send them back to the mainland ? Is Ben that sick that he'd let nine women die ? Apparently so.

I'm thinking it's a secret room was not there before and the writers may have added it after the fact. Sun claims that Kate, Rousseau and Claire searched the medical hatch. Kate found the fake clothes in a locker but not the freekish big lever ?

Maybe I'm having a bad day and I'm still totally mad about Mikhail being alive, I hate that way more than I ever disliked Nikki and Paulo, I think my favourite show may have jumped the dolphin (often mistaken for a shark). I'll give the writers to the end of the season to explain this totally inconsistent "island healing" then I may well give it up (for 8 months at least).

[my-2-cents]

@ Chunderhead

IMHO, despite the Kwon's early quibbles, Jin fathered Sun's baby on DAY 33, the day BEFORE Sun revealed herself as an English-speaker in "...In Translation."

Juliet's lines in D.O.C. were:
"Okay. You crashed here 90 days ago. The Baby was conceived 'ABOUT' 8 weeks ago. So...'AROUND' 53 days. You got pregnant on the island."

From a writing standpoint, the exact D.O.C. easily takes a back seat to the life & death question of whether conception occurred on or off-island. That said, there's enough margin for error there to allow a D.O.C. anywhere between DAY 34 & DAY 37 with Jin as the father (see below).

Now, there could ALWAYS be another father on LOST, but Sun's lines DID sound pretty sincere. She weeps joyfully in the hatch: "It's Jin's." On exiting the hatch: "I am very happy the baby is Jin's. You DID give me GOOD news, Juliet." But we won't be positive until TPTB address this in a future O.L.P.

Lostpedia is all over the place on this one too. Assuming the 53-day age of the fetus is as accurate, another important factor becomes whether or not Juliet's 90-day comment is just an approximation. This means that Lostpedia's citation of DAY 35 as the D.O.C. doesn't fit very neatly: "According to Juliet, Sun becomes pregnant on ROUGHLY this date".
( http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Timeline:October_2004 )
More precisely, FOLLOWING Jin's (perceived) public humiliation on Day 34 ("...In Translation"), the Kwon's don't share another tender moment until their good-byes on DAY 44, right before the launch of Michael's raft in "Exodus, Part 1." They most likely conceived on DAY 33.

So either Lostpedia is offering their best guess like the rest of us, or they're relying on some pretty bold assumptions. However, there are AT LEAST 2 possible ways for things play out if we take that 90-day statement LITERALLY:

(1) If you stick to Lostpedia's main recap
( http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/D.O.C. )
of Juliet's wording, then D.O.C. = Day 37 [literally 90-53]; That would make D.O.C. somewhere between "...In Translation & Hurley's "Numbers" episode (S1E16) where the estranged Kwons show up only briefly. We don't SEE them on speaking terms again until Boone's last day of life , DAY 42 (S1E20). Scenario Verdict = It's not likely the Kwon's were "knocking boots" during this time.

(2) Elsewhere, Lostpedia's timeline for the medical hatch scene
( http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Timeline:December_2004 )
puts Juliet's 90-day statement at DAY 87. If this version is to be believed, then D.O.C. = DAY 34 [87-53]. This also puts D.O.C. DURING "In Translation." Jin & Sun certainly did NOT "get it on" right away AFTER this. Conception had to take place earlier, BEFORE Sun's stinging revelation on the beach. Scenario Verdict = Better, but not definitive.

No wonder fertility doctors get the big bucks.
They have to figure this stuff out when it really counts.

Doc Waxman

[jg]

@ Radz...,
I agree with the Multiverse thought line. I too posted a couple of threads back about this possiblilty. Mark B (I think) reminded me it was the Star Trek episode "Mirror Mirror" in which there was a good Kirk and a bad Kirk, The Spocks were neutral-logical...So I agree it could have this spin but I too hope they don't go there.

Krakatoa is a volcano that blew in 1883. Many threads ago I suggested that this created the tsunami that deposited the Black Rock onto the Island

[my-2-cents]

@ RADZ,

A monster ocean wave might mess up Mikhail's no-shower-in-months track record, blood-and-all, but a Krakatoa eruption would really put the 2004 Tsunami to shame.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krakatoa

Doc Waxman

[Mark B]

subject: inconsistent healing

Lets take a look at this shall we .. please add to my list if I've forgotten anyone.

FIXED FAST
Locke: broken back
Locke: screwed leg
Rose: Cancer
Naomi: punctured lung
Sawyer: bullet wound to shoulder POST infection but he still got the infection, is this because he was off island when it happened.
Jin: maybe fixed if he wsa 100% infertile otherwise he and all men are just boosted.
Mikhail: if he was just badly injured but signs were VERY bad with al sorts spurting from his ears, mouth, nose and eyes.

Perhaps fixed:
Rose: given CPR on beach in pilot epi
Charlie: hung from tree and survived when maybe he shouldn't have

Not sure/can't remember:
Ben: arrow wound and torture scars
Micheal : self-inflicted bullet wound
Jin/Micheal: after fight with each other
Man with broken leg in pilot: no idea what happened to him
Sawyer: after a bit of Sayid time
Sayid : after a bit of Rousseau time

NOT FIXED:
Marshal: shrapnel and lingered for a few days this is the biggest inconsistency
Ben : cancer
Pregnant Others : didn't look like a fun way to go that.
Goodwin: fliiping great stake
AL: shot
Libby: shot
Colleen: shot
Danny: shot
Ethan: shot
Scott/Steve: beaten to death
Other 1 : killed by Eko (beaten)
Other 2: killed by Eko (beaten)
Other 3: shot by Saywer in S2 finale
Kelvin: in fight with Des
Boone: crushed in plane crash
Shannon: shot
Klugh: shot (so far dead)
Charlie: at least in Desmonds flash forwards

I can't see any trends other than shots to the stomach kills people, shots to the shoulder don't. People killed by being beaten to death in fights seem to not be fixed. I suppose the island may not be able to fix people who are very badly injured (except brain mush Mikhail) or thse who actually die and it may chose who to fix (fixed Rose but not Ben). The Marshall could just be a "bad" person but then why does Ben have cancer and Rose does not ? Why did Ben not take Rose to find out why her cancer had gone ?

[jg]

@ Mark B,
Island healing power choices nicely parced out. Acute lead poisoning seems to be something beyond the Island's healing powers.

(If anyone cares. Tambora exploded in 1815. A more slave friendly era.)

[Sphere]

Seaman do not rely only on high tech equipment while navigating, specially if the island is somehow interfering with the equipment in crazy ways. You can always use the sun, the birds, and most importantly the skys. I don't understand why Demond didn't hit something while in his boats. If it is an atol, or if it is in the middle of the antartic, he should have hit something, I think. How many day he tried before given up and getting drunk?

[ebonX]

@Mark B. - Re: Island Healing Power

Thanks for the list ... First thing I noticed is that, on the Island, people "recover" faster (except Ben), but can still be injured/die normally. The Island's healing power is not like Wolverine (regeneration) ... Every event where someone is "healed" by the Island, their body seemed to return to a "natural state" quickly, but only after they had been attended to medically.

Following this hypothesis, I think that Boone would have survived if Jack had amputated Boone's leg (and was able to stabilize Boone's condition to let the Island "speed up" the recovery).

With this line of thinking, it covers Locke (leg 2x), Rose (cancer), Naomi (lung - only after she receives aid from Mikhail), Jin (lil' Jin), Sawyer (shoulder wound - only after Jack stops the infection & stabilizes him) ...

Rose (drowning) & Charlie (hanging) -- I think were saved by Jack.

Marshall - He died from infection. If Jack had been able to stop the infection, the Marshall would have survived (same situation as Boone - see above), according to this theory.

Michael - He was only on the Island for a couple days after he was shot ... Is his arm still in a sling when him and Walt leave the Island?

AL, Libby, Steve/Scott, Kelvin, etc. - I think they died because they were never given aid to "stabilize" their condition (see Boone or Marshall as example).

Make sense ... ?!?

[jg]

Subject: Island Healing powers

Two factors influence the healing.

1) The amount of tissue damage to the wrong organs. That is, one can die too quickly for the Island's powers to save you.
2) Island choice.

The magnetic nature of the Island may be the "etiology" of this. There are numerous reports in pseudoscience of the miraculous healing power of magnets.

BTW I think the Marshal died of acute lead poisoning.

[ebonX]

@jg & Mark B. - Re: Island Healing Factor

The whole "magnetic healing properties" idea is a great comparison to make ... Those magnetic bands that people wear make ppl "feel better" ... It does not "heal them" (from say a gun shot wound), but you could say that those magnetic bands are used to speed recovery.

In other words the unique electromagnetic properties of the Island do not "heal" people, but rather speeds up a person's "recovery".

[Mark B]

Well I 'm glad we soted that out but I still done't like that Mikhail is alive ... for completeness

Other 4: Beaten to death by AL (I think -- I could be confused)
Nathan: Broken neck

Anyone else anymore ?

This really is a bit of a Death Island.

Hang on maybe Ben isn;t being cured because the magnetic power has gone ... no wait flippin Mikhail has been cured since "purple sky".

[my-2-cents]

Is it just me or does Mikhail remind anyone else of "Inspector Detector" from Speed Racer? Not the accent,
but his facial expression.

Doc Waxman

[my-2-cents]

Completely from left field:

I wonder if JACOB purposely gave his padawan BEN a tumor as a test of devotion or spirituality or willingness to carry out JACOB's schemes against the Losties, knowing BEN would easily engineer a spinal surgery along the way as an incentive. Maybe whatever good health JACOB gives (healing) he can also take away. Does BEN have a similar hold on Juliet at the moment?

Further:

Is BEN the Hemingway to JACOB's Dostoyevsky (S2E15)?
What nefarious interest would JACOB have in the Losties? Would ISAAC of ULURU (related?) be in on the same scheme?
Is the healing power of the island dependent on some previous (even unwitting) off-island encounter with JACOB or ISAAC?
Or is it mitigated/tempered by JACOB's will?
Is JACOB's power a product of the island that the builders of the 4-Toed Statue originally harnessed?
Did JACOB make some yet-to-be revealed deal with some of the Losties' parents long ago, a la X-Files' gov't conspirators w/ the Aliens?
Did JACOB endow a deeply devout (to the "great man"!) Mikhail with continuous healing as an example to other Others?
Can Mikhail himself endow heal others, even if to a lesser degree?

OK, let's shoot a few holes into these!
Or just toss'em into the sonic fence.

Doc Waxman

[my-2-cents]

**********************************
HUGE SPOILERS - IF TRUE!
**********************************

Is this JACOB?

http://www.4815162342.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38662

http://users.zoominternet.net/~autographs/scrimm.jpg

http://www.answers.com/topic/angus-scrimm

--------------

A good half dozen big season 3 spoilers , IF TRUE:

http://www.4815162342.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38716

**********************************
END OF POSSIBLE SPOILERS
**********************************

Doc Waxman

[Mike in the Box]

Barely any conversation today...what is everybody doing? Even though I don't always respond, I have been reading. there are a lot of great theories regarding what Naomi has said, the healing powers of the island, the possible connection between Desmond and Mikhail. I love all the different lines of thinking. Keep it up people!!!

[Mike in the Box]

Barely any conversation today...what is everybody doing? Even though I don't always respond, I have been reading. there are a lot of great theories regarding what Naomi has said, the healing powers of the island, the possible connection between Desmond and Mikhail. I love all the different lines of thinking. Keep it up people!!!

[jg]

@ Mike in…, (and/or other ‘hard cores’),

I am finding that much of the fun of this show is secondary to the literature and other story allusions that are presented. I don’t have enough time to look up all the possible references. That is why I count on the you other ‘Podcastees’ to run down other leads for me. I have chosen a few rabbit holes to run down. Whereas they will probably lead to nowhere it is nonetheless sort of fun. My latest free association has been regarding the Portuguese connection and the Templars.

So, I will end this rambling time killer to posit:

• Are the writers of this show such geniuses that they actually see all the probable connections in the story that they weave?
• …or…
• Are they just throwing out a huge volume of potentially interesting topics?
• …or…
• Is the huge 'topic smorgasbord' their genius?

For me, LOST would not be as interesting if it weren’t for ‘Google’.

@ Radz...,
I'm going to get us to '108' eve if I have to do it myself.

@ Doc,
Thanks for the interesting link to the "Purple Sky" site. Entertaing and intriguing.