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Comments

paula

Thanks for your efforts tonight - off to bed with my ipod ;)

Doug Nelson

1) Getting a podcast this quick is awesome

2) It's not going to have any of the great forum comments, theories, and links that I really listen to the podcast for.

By next weekend, do you really mean that this cast is the only one there's going to be for Left Behind? If so, I'm a little disappointed, because I really listen to LostCasts for the great forum-scraping comment-moderating work you guy do, not the general show reactions. If I had to pick one, I'd pick a Monday night in-depth podcast over a Wednesday-night lean one, but in a perfect world, I'd want both. I'm sure more listeners will have thoughts on this, though.

Sobaika

Great job, especially for having little research ;)

Jeff Croft

Wow, great surprise tonight! Great episode, too. Was really glad to hear Tasha contributing just as much as the guys. Maybe you guys need to get some drinks in her every week before the podcast. ;)

I really enjoyed hearing your right-after-the-episode reactions and would love to hear them again sometime, but I'd agree with Doug that the REAL reason I love LOSTCasts more than any other LOST podcast is for the super-detailed in-depth stuff you guys do that just can't be done in this timely format.

So, count me as someone who wants both a post-episode cast AND a weekend cast. Because you guys have nothing better to do than talk about LOST, right? :)

Thanks again, guys. Great work!

Mark

Great work guys (and girl). Although I would probably agree that I like the in depth podcasts better, I"m just thankful that you guys put one out at all. With the Easter holiday & family obligations, etc, thanks for getting together last night & giving us something. Also, thanks for doing these every week. While I like lost way better when it's shown like this, I have to imagine that it gets tough for you guys to give up a good part of your weekend every week to make the podcast happen, so thanks for sticking with it. Nice to hear Tasha again. I liked her before, but I think that she really did a great job tonight, contributing a lot more than in the past. Keep up the good work.

Does anyone else think that Juliet & Jack might be setting up the Losties? The only proof we have that Juliet was gassed is her telling Kate that she was. Her bout of unconsciousness, if she was gassed, was a lot shorter than Kate's, as she had time to possibly drag Kate out to the jungle, and definitely at least handcuff them together, lie dow & pretend to be asleep. Putting the knife jutting out of her pocket right next to Kate was premeditated too, I'm sure.

And likewise with Jack, assuming that everyone got gassed with the same compound, Kate woke up sometime in the day, possibly late afternoon/early evening. IIRC, they didn't get back to othersville until the next day (as it was light out again) Juliet tells Kate to go find jack, while she finds Sayid. Jack is still unconsciuos when Kate finds him. How come he was out for so much longer than the girls (who given their lighter mass should concievalby have been affected MORE by the gas). Kate 'finds' jack, rouses him, Juliet gets Sayid & they head back to the Losties, with Jack definitely on Juliet's side. Seems suspicious to me. Especially since we know the others are still on the Island (as per Locke's comments earlier) Could they be planning an attack on the losties. Juliet handed Jack his bag, already packed. I wonder if he has a walkie talkie in there. Would be interesitng it Sawyer's walkie talkie spoiled the others' attack on the lostie's camp.

Pauly

I’m in partial agreement with you Mark. I’m 100% sure that Juliet was never gassed and will serve as a mole in the Losties camp. Perhaps she cut another deal with Ben for her freedom based upon her willingness to serve as a double agent. Also, what Ben said a couple of episodes ago to Jack about Juliet not “caring” about him rings true. Just as every action of Locke is calculated to stay ON the island, every action of Juliet is motivated by her desperation to get away. For some reason, I doubt she will ever get off the island. I can see her getting caught in the crossfire of a Lostie/Other battle.

As for Jack: I’m not convinced he is in on the plot. Now, he COULD be if he cut the same deal with Ben as Juliet. His mannerisms with Kate in this episode were in stark contrast to Man From Tallahassee when he said, “I will come back for you.” Did the loss of the sub change things to the degree that he’s switched sides?

anthony

hey guys. thanks for getting up the podcast so fast this week. i enjoyed your insights, and explanations and am looking forward to the next podcast.

p.s. (Tasha still sucks.)

daviboy

I don't know what most of you guys think, but I'm really concerned by Juliet's comment about "We don't know what it (smoke monster) is, but it doesn't seem to like our fence". I think this is an indication that we might never get a clear cut explanation of what the smoke monster is. I mean if the "Others/hostiles" don't know what it is then who does? Maybe the Degroot flashback in a few weeks will shed some light on this topic.

Anyway it was a great episode and I agree with (Mark) that I don't trust Juliet's motives. Something's not right and I think she's using Jack for her benefit and I could see him being easily manipulated because in a way I bet Juliet reminds him of his ex-wife (a woman in need that he can help fix).

Thanks guys for all your hard work. This will always be the best podcast for LOST.

Radzinsky

A few introductory notes...

@ JackedupLockedown

Your timeline on the last post was outstanding. If you're back around on the message boards today, I'd very much like to know how much of your timeline is hard fact (from the blast door, Lost Experience, etc.) and how much is speculation. I have a few corrections that I think I could offer that could tune it up at points, but overall it's a great contribution.

And about last night's episode:

(1) Anyone see the code that Juliet entered on the sonic fence?

(2) I was proven wrong on my theory that the Others control Cerberus... it seems like the sonic fence was at least in part designed to keep Cerberus out.

(3) I am not sure that Jack and Juliet have any sort of secret plan. We know that Jack has trouble letting go, and once he makes a commitment to someone (i.e. "We're getting off the Island together, Juliet") he sticks to it. That might explain why she's coming into the camp.

(4) We have to talk about Cerberus. He kills the pilot of flight 815, he shows Locke something "beautiful", he kills/judges Eko, and now he takes an imprint of Juliet's mind as he did with Eko. Why? Can anyone see a pattern to these actions? Is he about to judge Juliet? I tried to explain them yesterday as being motivated/controlled by the Others -- which sort of still fits in that the Others have benefitted from every action Cerberus has taken -- but if they really controlled him, why the sonic fence?

(5) Is Jack genuinely pissed at Kate?

(6) Locke has not turned and he isn't really the "Cobra". Locke can always be explained as being primarily interested in the nature and mystery of the Island -- all his actions stem from that. Going with the Others (and following his Dad) isn't inconsistent with that at all, nor does it define him as a bad guy.

(7) Where are the Others going to?

(8) Kate's new backstory and Sawyer as the temporary "leader" of the camp... very good.

(9) SPOILER: we're going to need to wear diapers for three upcoming backstories. Juliet next week. A few weeks after that... GERALD AND KAREN DE GROOT. And in the 2-part season finale... BENJAMIN LINUS.

~Radzinsky

daviboy

@ Radzinsky

I think the "others" are going to some kind of main underground base that we haven't seen yet. As far as Locke, he's going where Cooper's going. And it doesn't hurt our Losties to have a "mole" in the others camp just like Juliet could be a "mole" for Ben to spy on our Losties.

Loney

Couple things. I have been vinicated that Smokey is not controlled by the Others. I didn't think so all along. I'm right on something, woo hoo.

That being said, if the baracks were built by DHARMA (which it appears) then that means they don't control Smokey either.

I think Juliet might have dragged Kate out as well to try to get someone else on her side.

Smokey seems very interested in Juliet. Is it possible that the mark she was given has something to do with that? That the mark attracts Smokey?

That was deffinitely a hand in the smoke coming for Juliet just like Eko right? It scanned her (or tried to) like Eko also right?

jeffinthe9

Seems to me the others have gone back to the other island Alcatraz and are out there, maybe living, maybe just working for the day. Without a sub, they still have boats remember. Perhaps Juliette knows that and thats why shes going to be a spy. Looks like she has a strong connection with Ben. That would also explain why the fense was off BEFORE they got there, and she turned it back on.
Looks like the others have turned Locke. Jack/Siad/Julette all have pre-packed backpacks (and they were off camera and maybe not locked up), but Kate doesnt have one and seems like she wasnt prepared. Perhaps Kate the only one that wasnt expecting this.

Doug

SPOILER DISCUSSION:

re: Next week's "submarine." I was pretty sure it was a scene from a flashback, and part of this was the flashes around it (which looked like Juliette's flashback) that involved Ethan in what definitely looks like an indoor/dark situation (potentially, on the sub). I'm betting that next week we find out how Juliette was brought to the Island, and that we're probably going to find out that she's as much in the dark as the Losties are.

Cihan

I dont mind this new fangled initial reaction podcast, but I prefer the way its usually done. Still, nice to see it up immediately! Definitely a fun vibe coming through, did you guys get Tasha drunk? Huh!? Anyway, have a good easter guys. :)

So, Left Behind (which unfortunately didnt parody the Evangelical Christian series, but there WERE a couple Bibles thrown into the mix) . It was an ok episode; had a little bit of everything in it. I was a bit disappointed we got another convoluted connection, in Kate's flashback, but it didnt put me off completely. Glad to see Sawyer's child was confirmed though. And also glad to see foreshadowing of Sawyer having to step up, wonder what the season climax is going to be like...will he step up!?

1] You know people dissed Occam's razor alot lately, but turns out the sonic fence was for Smokey afterall, heh.

2] Thanks for the odds in the previous talkback guys, lol. Looks like no one got to a 100! And thanks for mentioning you read my posts Mike in the Box, likewise.

3] Locke knows about Kate. Why? How many other Losties does he know about now? Sawyer? God, he's such a sucker.

4] When Juliet and Kate fell in the mud, I thought they were going to go into Predator mode and somehow be hidden from Smokey. (while screaming "Come and kill me! Come on! I'm right here!!!")

5] Looks like Juliet got scanned (sure, different from how Eko got scanned but it did look like she was getting her photo taken or something), interesting if this is so, and interesting why she hasnt been scanned before.

6] She's got to be a plant, I mean come on. GOT TO BE.

7] I still think Dharma created Smokey and Smokey got out of control. Occam's Razor... I think there's one monster, but still...the stomping sounds just dont gel with Smokey. Maybe there's some kind of mechanical contraption underground that works in tandem with Smokey (keeping it stuck on the island so it doesnt wander off across the ocean?)

8] I mentioned the Left Behind series earlier in a jokey manner, but strangely enough you could see some similarities or influences from it I guess. (oO)

Jamie (c)

Smokey must not be very clever, I mean Kate figured out a way over the fence, you would think it could at least push a tree over and use that.

Seems like Smokey the monster has a flash option, nice for them to mix it up, that is IF Smokey was the monster outside the bamboo. (and why would that stop a smoke based monster?)

I don't trust Juliette for anything she says, I think she's Ben's padawan and this is part of her training. Her current lesson is to enter the Losties tribe and have them accept her. (then frak them over)

The Sawyer / Hurley 'vote out of the tribe' stuff was fun predictable filler but was almost too goofy for me. Sort of a wink at Survivor with the intent of softening Sawyer's character. Hurley was really the leader in those segments, not Sawyer. He conned 'top con'.


danbury

First of all - thank you for doing the pod cast early rather than deciding to do no pod cast at all. Definitely a different flavor, i.e. first impressions versus focusing on Easter eggs and insights from other folks. It's hard to compare the two - apples & oranges - but I'd have to say I do like the later more informational podcasts better.

I'm a bit frustrated by the folks who complain that the back stories don't advance the story line at all. What in the world do people think the back stories are about? They are an integral part of the program because they help us understand what makes people tick, why they make the decisions they do, and what "journey" they are on in the island dealing with who they are and what they've done. Do they have free will to change their behavior and break from the past? Or are they fated to be who they are and continue doing what they've always done – usually to their and everyone else’s detriment? That’s as much a part of the central story as what in the world is “with” the bizarre island they’ve landed on.

I like the Tempest perspective of the island - there are a lot of elements that fit into place when you view it as a wild, untamed place that is magical and mystical - cut off from the rest of the world and controlled by some sort of force or entity (i.e. Prospero).

However, whatever the island is - there is an intersection with Skinner's black box (the box Ben refers to?). The Losties are like rats in a maze - how will they – either individually or working as a group - react to different obstacles or assignments put in their way. One of the funny things about Nikki and Paulo is that they just blew off all of the “assignments.” Paulo refused to go into the plane because it would fall down - in contrast to Locke and Boone (his puppy dog) who were determined to understand the mystery of the plane. Paulo uses the toilet in the hatch to hide the diamonds rather than try to figure out what the hatch was or what it meant to him and the other Losties.

Tonight's episode was about betrayal and rejection and I loved the way Sawyer's story intersected with Kate's and we see how their behavior has been changing on the island. Where Kate refused to understand her mother's perspective (who by the way I think is a terrible mother) and apologize for murdering "in cold blood" her mother's love - Kate apologizes to Jack for ruining his chance to escape (and unspoken I think is her remorse for being intimate with Sawyer and hurting Jack). Likewise, Sawyer betrays the woman who loves him and is carrying his child. Not only does he not apologize - in a past episode he denies that the little girl is his (though he does set up a trust fund for her). Yet in last night's episode he makes an effort to "make amends" and play a more constructive role in the "existing society."

Kate was rejected, banned and betrayed by her mother. Sawyer's girlfriend was rejected, abandoned and betrayed by Sawyer (as was her child/his daughter). Sawyer is supposedly about to be rejected & banned by the Losties. Juliet was rejected, betrayed and banned (we think) by the Others. Kate was rejected, betrayed and banned by Locke and the Others. Kate also appears to have been rejected by Jack (though it's hard to tell). Kate certainly seemed to reflect his rejection and her replacement by Juliet in Jack's affections through her eyes during the moment that Jack asks if Juliet went with the Others.

I don't know where this is all going but I think it is dead wrong to say that the back story was boring and 1) had nothing to do with advancing the story and 2) had no deeper significant meaning.

daviboy

Okay we know Smokey likes to flash people to find out about their past. We know Locke saw Smokey during the first season and not until the third season did we find out that he described it as the most beautiful light/sight/image...I can't remember for sure. So can we assume Locke was being scanned too like Juliet? And if so did Smokey like what it saw, because Smokey took off after Juliet and Kate after it scanned Juliet the night before. Let's say he was after Juliet then that means Locke is not safe from the wrath of Smokey either. Remember at the end of the first season, who did Smokey try to drag down a hole? Locke! (Remember Eko's death when he told Locke "you're next) I'm sure the reason we didn't see the flashes during the first season when Locke saw Smokey is because it was in the middle of the day unlike when Smokey scanned Juliet during the night.

Juliet's flashes were quick...I think Smokey flashed her three times which leads me to believe there is some significance to her saying her shoulder had been dislocated three other times. Maybe those three incident are what Smokey was flashing her to see.

I know this all may be a stretch, but I was just wondering what you guys thought.

Cihan

When Kate was asked if she would forgive the person who ratted her out, she said she never would, and I was thinking "Oh, Smokey is not going to like that one bit".

Good post danbury.

hazydavy

where & why did Locke go with the Others?
did they go back to their first camp on the same island?

Juliet HAS to know where they all went! She is playing the losties, Jack, maybe im not sure yet. How did Juliet know that Jack and Sayid was in their rooms? they could have been left in the jungle as well.

How come the smoke monster did not go over the fence if it could fly?

now that Jack goes back to the losties and Sawyer thinks he is needed as a leader of the losties there may be a conflict battle gonig on between them. think of the first time Jack and Sawyer meets and Jack may be pissed off with the whole Kate issue.

JackedupLockedown

@ Radzinsky

I'm here, the Timeline is 100% opinion based on facts, I now that does not help at all, but basically the dates and major events that occur on them are all facts we know, the conjecture comes in the form of me theorizing based on what I read on the forums, here on the cast and connections I make from relevant pieces of literature.

Anyway, I'd love to here your insights on the timeline and would be happy to answer any questions or clear anything up. Fire up buddy!!!

@danbury

I too think the back stories are an essential aspect of the story. As for the tempest, I had an interesting discussion with a friend last night after the show and her theory revolves around both the Tempest and the Brothers Karamarzov. She thinks there is a force on the Island (Others related...Jacob) who has been done wrong by several of the losties...So Jacob is Prospero, but then she thinks the Island is at odds with Jacob and the Island has brought people here to (unknown to them) hatch a plot to kill Jacob, similair to the Dostoyevsky (sp?) novel. She thinks Desmond and Locke are among those who will eventual try to destroy Jacob.

Anyway That's all I got for now

Loved the Episode, the Podcasts are better when you have time to research for sure, but nothing wrong with a change of pace, I enjoyed it and for those who do not like Tasha, keep in mind she brings up a ton of the speculation that goes on on this message board, I call her the "peoples lostcaster" and even though John and...Robert? (sorry if it was Matt) were dismisive of her opinions last night, I was glad she brought them up. Also as a member of the male species it's nice to know there is another woman besides fangirl who is as nerdy for the show as us Y chromosomes are.

hazydavy

by the way....
WHERE THE HECK DID DANIELLE GO??????????

JackedupLockedown

Also this weeks episode Haiku

Kate and Jules all muddy

How much beer did Roger have

Dharma makes A-1?

oddjob

Great Show

If your wondering about Juliet's loyalty.

Juliet wants off the island. The 'others' have a better chance of accomplishing this request than the losties.

Don't trust Juliet.


Mike in the Box

I haven't listened yet so maybe this is discussed...

Subject: Sawyer's leadership role

Ok so we realize that Hurley was setting Sawyer up so that he would be the leader everyone expects him to be. The problem I have is that Kate, Sayid, Juliet, and Jack are obviously coming back to the beach camp. Now there will be multiple leaders with Jack at the helm again. Will this episode actually set up a civil war between Jack and Sawyer? I can't see the writers spending time developing Sawyer's leadership potential just for him to play second fiddle again.

What do you guys think?

JackedupLockedown

Okay so here's something I have stumbled upon this morning, a sort of combining theory with the whispers and smokey.

I am not leaving the whole Whispers are thought theory, I am just expanding it to who's thoughts they might include...In doing so this brings me to who or what controls Smokey...the theory of the day for me is telepathy controls smokey.

I believe this is why the sonic fence stops it even though we clearly see Smokey flying much higher then Kate, Locke and Sayid did to get past it. The thoughts that control Smokey can not go beyond it's waves.

Now my favorite part: Smokey manifests itself out of the thoughts of the people living or stranded on the Island as well as those who have died on it. This is why we have seen so many dead people on the Island reappaer in dreams and hallucinations of the Losites. And why one of the Whisper conversations goes like this...

(Just before Shannon is shot by Ana Lucia)

From "Abandoned"
Note: Each section is on either the Left, Right or Center audio track. The tracks are played simultaneously.

Left
"Relax dude"
"She likes the guy"
"She’s coming"
"I don't know if I can run, but I can (or can't) yell"
"Shannon sighs"
(Scream)
"Dying sucks"
"Hurry up"
"Shh..."

Center
"She likes this guy"
"Dying sucks"
"Hi sis"
"Here she comes, here she comes"
"His mouth"
"She drives me crazy"
"Hurry up"
"I see eye to eye"
"I see..."

Right
"Relax dude"
"She likes the guy"
"What do you think we should do?"
"She’s coming"
"We should hide, we should run"
"Heard some voice"
"See ya" or "Lucia"
"Hide the scope"
"Hurry up"

There is another one early in the show when the whispers say something like
"survived a plane crash"
"you know what thats like"
"This one too" or "those two"
"all of them"
"well almost all"

So is this crazy enough to work or just crazy?

Mike in the Box

Additional thought...

Subject: Locke and the Others

Locke is obviously playing a game for his own benefit. He does not want to leave so we can assume that the Others did not leave the Island(s). Combined with the info that the submarine was the only way off the Island(s) we can also conclude that they did not leave the Island(s). This place is not that big. Where else could they go? My crackpot theory is that they went underground. I am betting on an underground bunker and those much theorized underground tunnels will finally come into the picture.

Subject: Juliet

Don't trust her for a second. She had the freaking key on her the whole time. Obviously she is a plant. Any normal person would have uncuffed themselves when their shoulder was dislocated, but not Jules. Why? Because she has a mission to accomplish: Infiltrate teh beach camp, cause division among the group, turn on Jack. I think my aforementioned civil war will be a product of Juliet's handiwork.

Cihan

@ Mike in the Box. I think we're definitely going to see a role reversal. We're used to Sawyer playing an antagonistic role and now that Jack's had his stint with the others and is siding with Juliet, he might end up in Sawyer's shoes for once. At least this is a possibility; a nice contrast with season 1.

And yeah, I'm siding with Sayid, he may not execute plans properly but his gut instinct about people is usually correct. The big question is: what is Juliet's plan? Or: What is Ben's plan? Regardless of the sub blowing, what did he intend to do next? If he's using Juliet, maybe its a side-project as opposed to his big plan, his big plan of course using Locke for some purpose (but even then he did not expect Locke to turn up at his house, so we still dont know Ben's masterplan or general purpose in life). Man, all we can do is speculate wildly, we just dont have enough information, especially about Jacob.

JackedupLockedown

@Mikeinthebox

Agree 100% with your assesment of Juliet

Too many clues suggest this is a set-up

1. The Knife in Juliet pocket just sitting there
2. Juliet is a ninja (as we learned in Sandwichgate): Yet Kate kicked her arse in the mud
3. The Key which she only used when her life was on the line
4. She went to get Sayid who I am sure was not passed out like Jack, but rather tied up somehow.

I think Jack is in on this, I have despised him from the start of the show and I think there is a reason for it. Everything he does comes from selfish motivation.

The Plan

Jack pretends to be passed out so that Kate gets the impd ression that they did in fact gas everyone, Juliet frees Sayid to try and establish a little bit of trust between her and him.
In other words the same con is essentially being pulled on both ends. Seperate the four; two in the jungle (one of us one of them) and two back at camp (same math) Juliet was calculated in saying you go get Jack. Jack and Juliet pull off the con without ever allowing Kate and Sayid anytime alone togeather. Jack instantly insists Juliet is coming with them.

I also agree Locke is up to something here; I am holding onto hope is the grand protagonist or antagonist of this story, I hope he is not just a bit player like Eko.

CarrieB

What a nice surprise! I'm downloading your podcast right now and will listen immediately, but I just wanted to say thanks and that getting a surprise Lostcast made my day!

Cihan

I just cant see Jack being in on Juliet's plan, he's never done anything to harm the Losties.

I dont think Juliet knows Jack as well as she makes out. He sure as hell fooled her when he pretended that seeing Kate in the cage with Sawyer made him make up his mind about abandoning them. He did the opposite and sacrificed himself for them.

Like I said a long time ago, if the Losties want to survive their stay on the island, they have to CHANGE, and not be like their past selves. Because the others know what the Losties were like in the past and they thus become predictable, which is fatal when Ben is the one doing the predicting.

karl is pretty awesome and doesnt care

you guys seriously need to get Kathy Griffen off your show. she sucked on seinfeld and curb your enthusiasm and she sucks even worse on your podcast.

no wonder why jerry seinfeld hates her for getting him all that BBQ sauce. her voice, face and ass make me want to puke.

Brittonlj

I love that they did not bother re-branding the "Continual Discharge Smoke Devices"... not even a Dharma logo with fake sleeping gas labels. Then again, why would Dharma provide speeping gas grenades...

The question remains, why do such a clear close up of the grenade, unless it really was just plain smoke and some island magic that made them fall asleep.

Robert

GET RID OF TASHA. I started a new weblink - ihatetashalostcast.com. We will be voting her off soon...you should do the same.

thanks for getting the site up fast.

Sphere TL

What’s up with the smoke monster? He is a flying dust when we see him, but also sounds like it has two feet and it takes pictures of Juliette?

Well, I'd say he projects/sythethises some sort of sound, that makes the noise AND the impact on the ground.

It could be a single person, like those soldiers of the future. This person could take the pictures/scan of Juliet, and still could jump the fence.

It may have predator-like qualities to hide himself in the jungle, and to appear in whatever color he wishes (at least black and white).


I don't know, but for a flying smoke to be unable to jump a fence is the most telling revelation so far. It seemed really heavy, and if you pay attention to the sounds it makes when it walks, seems to have two feet, like a dino, but I don't believe it is a real dinossaur.

I find attractive that it could be a single near-capable-of-independent-thinking machine like HAL in 2001, that was programmed by somebody in the past, who left her behind free in the Island. And now the machine has to cope with the environment: the others, the losties, etc. But it seems that the authors rule out the robot theory, I think.

Maybe it is a man embbeded in a machine like Robocop, with some sort of predator like capabilities of disguising his machine like sounds, size and weight.

Nash

I'm have to agree that I suspect Juliet is playing our Lostaways one more time. What was it that Ben said to Jack? "She's one of us. She'll never feel anything for you." or something to that affect.

So do you guys think this is her at the gas mask party?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ilagentesegreto/447502473/

Cowboy up hat
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ilagentesegreto/447120909/in/set-72157600049509702/

@daviboy,
Juliet got flashed 4 times starting here (keep clicking next photo to see them all). I think it's just a coincidence that it's the same number of times that Juliet has had her shoulder dislocated.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ilagentesegreto/447126587/in/set-72157600049509702/

Jeffinthe9

Here's an idea... Juliet is a die hard other, has some relationship/connection with Ben. Juliet has turned Jack, as Ben turned Locke. the others have somethings going on that has not been seen by us yet, but something that Jack and Locke both have seen and understand. Juliet was never gassed. She helped to gas Kate, and perhaps jack. I think Juliet/Jack/Siad are all others now.

Nash

Spoiler warning: Next Week on Lost Screencap

Picture of woman (probably Juliet) on submarine from Next Week on Lost. I'm also guessing it's from her flashback of her arrival on the Island.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ilagentesegreto/447302887/in/set-72157600049509702/

Spoilers end here.

Gas can:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ilagentesegreto/447124265/in/set-72157600049509702/

Keith's diner:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ilagentesegreto/447124538/in/set-72157600049509702/

Jeffinthe9

A few more things...
•Juliet told Kate about Smoky, "we dont know what it is, but we know it doesnt like our fenses." They have had encounters with it before, would that be the hostile that the video spoke of? Seems like there are a few smokys that turn into one as they aproach the fense, then split up as they leave.
•When Kate finds Jack in the house.. the house is trashed. If he was gased, then why would the furnature be turned upside down, and so distroyed?
•Juliet goes to get Siad from the camp. If Siad doesnt like her, why would he let her go and walk around the camp to check the houses. Wouldnt he think that she's an other and have an issue with her?
•Where is Rouso?? She's someplace in the camp.
•The fense was turned off when Kate/Juliet got there, so that hint that the others walked out of camp and left the fense off for a reason?
•Next weeks lost description says that Jacks an other, and Claire gets sick... could that be the sickness that Rouso warned about?

Sarah

sorry if this has already been said, but we can definitely know that this happened before kate's encounter with tom in (i think?) season 1, because her mom said the next time she saw kate she was going to yell for help, and when kate saw her mom at tom's hospital, her mom just said, "kathren? help! help!"

Lmnop

so is mikhail alive? because he made it THROUGH the fence, but when smokey hit it, it was like there was an invisible wall there, so why didnt mikhail run into that "wall"?

Sphere TL

Why would Ben need Juliet to spy the losties? They could have done just fine with almost any one. It is not hard for someone to just appear stranded on the Island and be well received by the losties. They are not in the business of killing people, so I don't think it would be a terribly hard thing to do.

I think Juliet is lying of course, but maybe she and jack are behind this. Ben might have just let them do what they wish, since they were leaving the Island any way and he has Locke on top of his priorities.

To me, the big question is what Juliet and Jack have in mind. Why don't they count on Kate, Sayid and Sawyer (who will know in time about jack's failed deal with the others).

The big question is what Juliet know about the others, Dharma, etc, and to what extent she will be more confident with Jack than with the other losties.

I think Ben had to let Jack and Juliet do whatever they want. Since he couldn't fullfill his deal (the sub is gone, but Locke knows better), Jack and Juliet must have concluded to go back to the camp and see their next move.

Jack and Juliet are in love, and they have a plan. Jack saved Juliet's life, that was a big deal for her. She may lie herself like crazy to the losties, but will never lie to Jack, not to put him in danger at least. Jack, I think, is a fool to trust her judgment, he should make her come clean with Sayid, etc, but he won't do that. He is not interested in the Island one bit. He likes her, and wants a way to get out, just he and Juliet if he must, if only because that is what is remotely possible. In his mind, he is doing all this with Juliet for everybody's good.

Nash

I've been doing a little research and both the smoke bombs and Juliet's knife are purchasable products from actual companies. Check it out...

ALS Continuous Discharge Smoke bomb:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ilagentesegreto/447597109/in/set-72157600049509702/
http://www.alslesslethal.com/SpecsHtm/psg272.htm

kershaw Ken Onion Chive 1600:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ilagentesegreto/447589065/in/set-72157600049509702/
http://www.kershaw-knives.net/Kershaw-Ken-Onion-Chive-KS1600.htm

Thomas Sydenham

Smokey is not human

Whatever moves smokey can not get past that Sonic barrier. The waves fried Mikhail's Brain;

From Wikipedia
In biological applications, sonication may be sufficient to disrupt or deactivate a biological material. For example, sonication is often used to disrupt cell mebranes and release cellular contents.

This is all I can find that might help explain what I think happened, but I've yet to hear it explained...

Sphere TL

Interestingly, at the Keshaw knives website: (http://www.kershawknives.com/aboutus.php)

1974
Pete Kershaw starts Kershaw Knives, Ltd. in Portland, Oregon to produce knives of high quality and value with a no-hassle lifetime guarantee .

Portland? hummm... ;-)

oddjob

Sawyer's the new Boss, Jack gave up is Leadership role when he opted for free ride off island. I'm guessing Sayid will get Sawyers approval for a little torturing. Too bad for Juliet.

Cihan

I'll definitely be anticipating Sawyer as leader and Jack as outcast, if they go that route.

As for Juliet, you know what? I double checked and she bloody well DID wear a gas mask in that scene with the others, I mean there's a woman with the same blue colour top and blonde colour hair, I really think its her. Or maybe I just want it to be her...no its her. Get the pitchforks!

Nash

@Cihan,

I really don't think that it's Juliet at the gas mask party. I think it's just another one of those "every blonde person on the Island is Juliet" moments, especially when we can't see her face. Juliet's hair is too long and curly and she's wearing a hoody that the gas mask wearer is not. I don't think that helps Juliet's credibility at all, I just don't think that is her in that shot.

I superimposed a picture of Juliet (post-mud) on top of the gas mask wearer:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ilagentesegreto/447502473/

jeffinthe9

Two things
•Has anyone pulled a screen shot of Juliet after they go back to camp, and look at her backpack, and compare it to the screen shot of the gas masks? The outfits are the same.
•Ben is smoky. Thats how he knows whats important to exploit. Thats why Juliet looks at smoky while its stuck in the fense. She looks at it like she knows it/him.

Megan

A couple comments.

I agree with oddjob - i think the camp will be glad to see jack back, but he's bringing an other with him, and when they find out that he struck a deal so that he could leave the island - basically leaving everyone else behind, he might not be completely outcast, but i don't see that going over well.

On the subject of how well the Others know the losties
I think they know their history, they know about Jack's life, and Locke's, and Kates, probably sayid and sawyer, probably anyone who seemed like a leader, or maybe they researched them all before they lost communication with the oustide world. but someone mentioned they don't know as much as they think - i agree with that. Just because you know what someone has done, you know what their job is, and if they're married or not, doesn't mean you know them. Kate might not know jack's birthday - does that mean she doesn't know him? i've thought this for a while - the others seem to make no distinction between knowing things a person has done, or knowing their job etc, and actually knowing the person. but i guess that could be their philosophy - are we the sum of our actions, which the others could potentially know, or are we more than that? it seems like the others think that all a person is is summed up in facts that can be researched. i'm sort of thinking out loud, so sorry if this doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but i think that that could be the downfall of the others, or if not their downfall, then at least a reason that they can't take down the losties. they also don't seem to anticipate any of them changing, or growing as people, which will also help the losties.

anyway that's my 2 cents for today

Cihan

@ Megan, that is good brainstorming about the others philosophy, and you're right, one of the aspects of the series is how well can you know someone from their past and can a person change? Like I said, if the Losties dont change they dont stand a chance against the others because they become predictable. Juliet just knows statistics and whatever she's read on paper, but I'd say Kate knows Jack better than she realises.

Its interesting to see how people have and havent changed since the crash. How much has Jack changed? There were moments, like with Boone's death, where he seemed to change, but the change was forced on him. When its up to him to change by his own will, he caves. I think, anyway. Been a while sicne I re-watched the entire series! Either way, the fact that he's being played by Juliet means he hasnt changed enough. (or he's using his supreme poker-face)

@ Nash, I dont know man. Post-mud pic messes things up somewhat. I mean their tops are the EXACT shade of blue, the hair is similar length too. I'll say I'm 60/40 positive its her, the camera even seems to focus primarily on the woman with the gasmask, almost like a subtle hint to us. Am I reaching? :D

Bryan from the Dena

Hey Guys, I loved the episode last night (but I guess I should stop sayig that since I am a fan boy and will always love the episode for the pure fact that it is like getting a fix) and I think it showed us some very cool stuff. First I think it showed us that significant events happen to those people who show the most change in their lives (by significant event for the most part I mean "death") Let me explain:

Echo - His whole life after taking over his brothers role as priest he felt like he had to make amends for what he had done his whole life because he believed it was wrong. When he finally comes to terms with this Smokey "kills" him.

Boone - He had is sick love for his sister, he gets over it and the island has locke send him up into the plane... dead Boone

Shannon - Learns to love someone other than herself genuinely...dead Shannon

Ana - Finally is able to let go of the anger and revenge in her heart...bang bang...dead Ana.

Libby - well, we don't really know enough, but maybe (and this is just a guess) she had some evil grudge against Hurley (her husband was on th balcony that collapsed and he died (maybe that is why she is in the same Hospital, they lived near by)and she wanted revenge. But she forgave him and loved him...bang bang...dead libby

Paulo/Niki - well maybe the island didn't like her tv show or something?

Who knows it that is correct, but I think last night we saw the oposite side of that, someone who clearly has not Changed. Kate blew up her step dad for the sake of her mother. That is what Kate tells herself, but her mother revealed it was really for herself that she did it. The same thing happened with Jack, Jack told her not to come back and she did claiming it was for Jack, but really it was for her because of her unresolved feelings.

Other people with Issues:
Locke - is he still getting played? or is his new plot going to show us a new Locke
Sawyer - Still the angry loner who claims he doesn't need anyone (we see a change on the horizon though)
Jack - Needs to fix things and cries in the jungle, I don't think he will ever stop crying in the jungle so he is going no where

Anyways, maybe I am way off with this but it was a thought, I will hit you all up with my villagers/island gods idea later.

Oh and is it possible the others went to Michael and Walts location? maybe

~Bryan from the Dena

mauiwauii

call me stupid for not thinking of this earlier BUT if the sub is the ONLY way off the island, when will Michael and Walt be coming back?? Are they already back?? i dont remember how long it took for Desmond to come back after he boated away.

Tasha got me thinking about the 2 monster theory. We hear heavy foot step sounds, see jungle getting torn up, heavy mechanical sounds and it doesnt appear that smokey does those things. Sure is something to consider.

Im curious to find out more about the process of who chosen to be left behind and who got to go. If it was all about being bad wouldn't have left Locke's dad?? Cant get much worse than that.

I think Desmond is a tortured soul. Wonder how is he going to work that out??

thanks for the podcast, looking forward to more....

Rodney

Sobaika

Subject: Lucy, Patron Saint of Blindness

Good catch by Tasha or whoever it was who noticed it! Along similar lines, Kate's other pseudonyms are Monica and Maggie aKa Margaret - all saints. Any idea as to what they represent?

Bryan from the Dena

Ok so here is my little metaphor for the island. If we assume that the losties are a village and the Others are mythological like beings then I think we would see something like this.

Hurley - The Healer
Locke - The Wisman (shaman/mystic)
Jack - King
Sayid - Defender
Sun - Farmer
Jin and Desmond (Locke was here but transformed to the Shaman) - Hunters
Kate - Queen
Sawyer - Prince
Charlie - Bard/Scribe
Claire - Godess of fertility (?) (might be a stretch)

*The Jack, Sawyer, and Kate thing is set up like I did since they really are the ruling class of the village, and like in any village when the rulers vanished (taken by the others) the wiseman spoke up (Locke talked about getting them back)

Now with the others we don't really know all of them but here is my best shot:

Ben - god of mischeif (like Loki)
Julliet - god of fertility or wisdom (athena)
Jacob - main god (zeus)

I am not sure if this even makes sense anymore, but here is a cool list of the gods.

http://www.geocities.com/athens/troy/2774/mythgods.html

Thanks for indulging me again

~Bryan from the Dena

lostnewbie

I think this episode was soooo wonderful because it incorporated so much new information about the Island mythology, the Others, and character histories!

a few points:
1. For the people who weren't thrilled by Kate's backstory, I think its important to realize that a big part of lost is the character stories. It can't be mythology, secrets, mysteries every second of every episode. I think it just adds depth to the story and sets lost apart...
2. The backstory actually plopped down a good reference about Saint Lucy, the psedonym that Kate took while on the run. http://www.catholic-forum.com/SAINTS/saintl01.htm
It struck me as a pretty greusome story for martyrdom and I wondered how it might relate to Kate's character (i.e. bad/good)
3. Did anyone else notice how Kate woke up startled throughout the episode? She wakes up with a start when she first realizes she's attached to juliette and she woke up suddenly after the encounter with Smokey the next morning. I think it might be a clue to the theory regarding time being someohow irrelevant on the island, or that in fact the 'flashbacks' aren't really flashacks and are occuring at the same time as island events. In Desmond's flashback episode, he wakes up suddenly also as he skips around in his past/present life. Anyone have thoughts on that?
4. I really didn't understand why Kate and Juliette woke up a whole day earlier than Jack and Sayid. Why did the gas knock them out so hard and not Kate or Juliette (if we believe that she was knocked out by gas in the first place)?
Of course there's always the possibility she's just a big fat liar and she's working with the Others.
I am leaning toward the idea that time is irrelevent/ somehow bent on the island...remember "only fools are slaves to time and space"

lol alright I hope you were able to follow my thoughts. This is my first time posting but I love the podcast and reading the boards each week!

lostnewbie

sorry if everything i said was redundant...i didn't realize that there were two diff threads and i just reposted without reading previous posts...my bad :)

Jamie (c)

So do we consider the previews that air with the show spoilers for the next episode?

Well in case people do.

###Spoiler talk###

Seems to me the glimpse of the sub we got is very flash back like. It even appears to be at the dock Locke blew a chunk out of, but it's not moored like it was when it (possibly) exploded.

That means either it's a different dock or a flashback. There does seem to be more lights to the dock than before, it could easily be another spot on the island.

Don't know what it means, but I'm sure in 7 days we'll know. ;)

Loney

I don't agree with the two monster theory (at least the part that we saw two monsters in that episode). BUT..there are some good points to it.

Here's what I think we're seeing. I think Smokey travels around in the underground conduits. When it does, the trees move and you here the whomping and howls, etc. Notice on 'Left Behind' that after two pieces of earth blow in the air, the smoke comes out. This is when it comes over the ground. One Monster, two modes of travel, two different sound effects.

At least that is my take and why I think the ground whomps around and we never see anything when it does.

SMKGrl

Could Smokey = Jacob?

Tahir

I liked the on Island stuff but the flashback was a bore.
A couple of things...

We saw 2 scenes where Sawyer stares at Sun and Sun looks very very pissed off at Sawyer - it that going anywhere ?

When Smokey flashes Juliet it seems to back off REAL quick - Is there something in that ?


Cameron

Great podcast, and Tasha was great again. I hope she is a regular from now on.

callie

where can I find the timeline someone mentioned?
thanks,
callie

alex's slingshot

@ danbury

word on the flashbacks. they are a part of the show that serve a major purpose. it's like complaining that six feet under opening with a death every week is getting old. that's just how the show rolls

also, i like tasha and think her contributions to the podcast are insightful and provide a nice contrast to the guys (no offense guys, i like ya'll too!)

Jamie (c)

Finally listened to the Podcast - I thought it worked but it does lack the research and list theories. (duh)

So I think once a season is fine. ;) I do like hearing from Tasha.

RE: Smokey
1) I do not believe Smokey can manifest itself as a person. If it was that smart why would the sonic fence stop it?

2) I'm not convinced the T-Rex noise is also Smokey, we've seen that sound knocking down trees, why would Smokey have that sort of strength but again not smart enough to go over the fence (or knock over a pillar?)

3) Why is tall thick Bamboo too much for a creature that can knock over palm trees?

And what the hell happened to Rousseau and why isn't anyone asking about her?

The Gas Mask Blondie looked like Libby from behind. Maybe a Zombie Libby is in our future? ;)

Oh, and don't trust Juliette

Sobaika

@ Callie

I had asked for Kate's timeline in the previous thread. According to answers there, in the podcast, and at Lostpedia it is the following:

Kate blows up her home and step father, beginning her life of crime. WHAT KATE DID(S2)

Kate returns to Iowa to find out why her mother turned her in to the Marshall. Meets Cassidy and elicits help, Kate's mother tells her she will scream the next time she sees her. LEFT BEHIND (S3)

Kate (known in the flashback as Monica) settles into a quiet married life but calls the Marshall to have him stop chasing her. She ends up leaving her husband. I DO (S3)

Kate returns home since her mother is dying of cancer. Meets Tom - high school sweetheart - and goes over childhood mementos, which include a toy airplane. Tom helps her see her mother in the hospital. Mother begins screaming, Kate and Tom begin running from the feds, Tom gets shot. BORN TO RUN(S1)

Kate does not Kate is part of a bank heist (known in the flashback as "Maggie") just so she can get the toy airplane that belonged to her death boyfriend. WHATEVER THE CASE MAY BE(S1)

Kate is living in a barn in Australia and gets turned in to the Marshall by the farmer. This puts her on Flight 815 back to the US. TABULA RASA(S1)

Hope this helps!

Tahir

Something just occured to me - apologies if its been mentioned before.

Is the on island conning of Sawyer being banished supposed to tell us that Juliet, apparently being banned, is a con also.

jg

Subject: Podcast, Juliet

Lucy of Syracuse: again with the eyes.

Tasha is getting traction.

Mostly not drinking podcasts: wise...but if you must…maybe Guinness or at least Corona...

Juliet: currently, a mole under duress. Incentive=get off island...the Others are still her best chance. She may be like a caged animal (gilded though it may have been). Once released into the beach society she may change her mind. Current Juliet=cold & calculating, an Other’s prisoner not a disciple.


danbury

@ alex's slingshot - that's a great analogy re Six Feet Under and right on the money.

If fact, I think the show's creators would say that the flashbacks and character profiles are much more important to the show than the science fiction or supernatural stuff that occurs on the island.

Quite frankly, figuring out who these people are, what makes them tick, what they are up to and what they will do next is why I tune in every week. And if I didn't care about Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Locke, Sayid, et al, I would have stopped watching (out of frustration) long ago.

All the other stuff going on that builds excitement, curiosity, apprehension (and, yes, frustration) is icing on the cake, as far as I'm concerned.

danbury

@ sobaika -

Regarding the meaning of Kate also using the Saints' names Margaret and Monica - unfortunately there are 39 different Margarets listed under Patron Saints, so it's hard to determine what if any meaning would be attached.

However there is only one St. Monica - interestingly she is Patron Saint to abuse victims, alcoholics, difficult marriages, disappointing children, victims of verbal abuse, widows, etc.

http://www.catholic-forum.com/SAINTS/saintm04.htm

sprucemoose

I've been listening to lostCasts for a long time...not a fan of tasha

regardless, heres a crackpot theory:

Its pretty obvious that Juliet is a mole for the others. The fact that she has a key to her own cuff is pretty ricidulous, how else can that be explained logically? Ben has another way off the island and is still controlling Juliet with it, so she's reluctantly embedding herself into 815s.

That's why she was at first pretending to not know what the smoke monster was, and then, when she realized it was too close, she was thinking, "Scree this, I'm not getting killed for Ben's little mind games", and she stopped faking it to get safe in the fence. Then she did the lame "I didn't want to be left behind again" routine to back into the con to follow Kate.

The key was given to her by Ben in case for an emergency.

Cihan

I also dont think its a coincidence the flashback has a con as a major aspect of it, Hurley cons Sawyer and now we've got Juliet coming between Sayid and Jack. Maybe its a gigantic red herring, but maybe it just means Juliet is.NOT.TO.BE.TRUSTED.

I would like to see it eventually climax as Juliet thinking she knows Jack because of his past, but Kate manages to win Jack back to the good side, because she knows the man he is today (or in 2004, heh). Slightly generic turn of events, but still entertaining.

Basically I just want Sayid to torture Juliet for answers, then go walk off into the jungle for solitude, only to stumble onto something else.

Shma

Where are the others to go ? Perhaps to show locke a cool movie with bee's and shit with some really loud music...

Nash

@Cihan,

OK, here's a much better collage of pictures showing the Other woman in the gas mask and some of Juliet before getting muddy. It's definitely not her. The face profile of the Other is different, her hair is much straighter and blonder, and the blue shirt is tighter and shorter.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ilagentesegreto/448248528/in/set-72157600049509702/

musepsycho
Cihan

Lol, man that is one comprehensive collage Nash. Ok, I give up, you're right.

We still dont trust her though right? You'll join me in the pitchforks and torches gang, right!?

Midnight

Not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, but I'm curious about the Others method of deciding who is a "good" person. Locke implied that they have condemned Kate as a "bad person" based on what she did to her stepfather. But what about Locke pushing "patchy" into the security fence? Possibly they dont know about this. So will Locke be put on trial, like Juliet, if they find out? Or do they consider it a good deed since patchy wanted to die?

Nash

@Cihan,

I wholeheartedly concur that Juliet is still not to be trusted. Whether or not the Others left her out to dry, she is one shifty character. Whatever knowledge separates the Others (assuming they're not just crazy cult followers) from the rest of the Lostaway peons, Juliet has it and I think that will keep her from switching sides.

p.s. It'd be a shame to torch that bod though.

@Midnight,

But if Locke turns out to be Jacob, then he can do whatever he wants :)

alex's slingshot

new Official LOST podcast is up!

Jamie (c)

Looking at the code video, I have my doubts the numbers are relevant and not just random ones the actress picked.

Consider the last frame of the sequence where it shows the dirty / clean keys. The 5 has been pressed, and yet wasn't in that filmed sequence.

I think this one is no easter egg.

Thomas Sydenham

Jaime (c)

How can you have doubts, they show her press 1,6,2,3 I mean sure nobodys knows what it means, but still the numbers hold the power

Nash

Yeah, it could have been written into the script to enter 1-5-1-6-2-3, but maybe that was a waste of film, not to mention the propensity of 4 digit PINs.

I definitely don't think it randomly happened to be two of The Numbers in sequence. If we limit the possibilities to 4 digit PINs comprised of The Numbers in sequence without partials (e.g. 8-15-1[6]), then the only four sequences could be 4-8-15, 15-16, 16-23, and 23-42. Out of 10^4 possibilities, that's a 0.04% chance of a random draw.

Jamie (c)

I'm just looking at the pad at the end of the sequence and the dirty versus clean(er) keys.

The extra dirty ones are the ones she's been pressing while doing the shot.

It's sort of a production continuity error to have her pressing (mud) dirty keys. They probably just had her do a number of takes without wiping down the key pad.

You're welcome to think it's an easter egg, but I think it's just a colorful rock.

Thomas Sydenham

@ Jamie (c)

Are you a member of the "Hare club for men"

Is that why you are protecting the Easter Egg secret?

Jamie (c)

@ Thomas Sydenham - lol, no I'm just a friend of Jebus and he doesn't want the kids putting rocks into their baskets, breaking all the real eggs. ;)

jeffinthe9

More thoughts-
•The brain washing station on Alcatraz... could they have put Jack in that, and now he loves the others? Could they have put locke in that too, and now he's on board with the others?
•Where's Ben's daughters boyfriend (forget his name) he went back to get her, and is not there yet? could be an oversight
•Everytime Smoky comes out, the others are no where to be seen. Could the others have gone to a place where they control smoky? Afterall smoky does make a machine sound, and an elephant too, could it be some futuristic machine that the others use since "Time doesnt pass the same on the island"
•For the discussion on the numbers that are entered, go to http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/ they have a slow motion cap of the numbers as they are being entered, its 1623

jg

So many good posts, so little typing skill

Subjects:
 Others
 Juliet
 Cerberus
 Random thoughts

@ daviboy & Radz,
I agree they went to an underground lair. All evil geniuses have one. Besides Ben admitted it (giant hamsters…we’ll see) I hope its in a hollowed out volcano.

@ Megan, Hazydavy & Cihan,
I too thought it odd that Juliet was saying all this factual info regarding Jack. Kate has lived in close proximity to Jack for ~ 3 months. That is superior knowledge. I think she was trying to “play” Kate (reminds me of mindmessin’ Ben).

@ Jacked…
I agree Locke is/will be the main pro/antagonist.

@ danbury,
Assignments…intriguing. Betray and abandonded…good theme pick up.

Juliet: Right now=bad. She is a disturbed character. Can she change/integrate with the beach society?
Suspicious things.
 Handcuff key
 Knew the fence was off
 “Playing” Kate
Has her history of shoulder dislocations come from mistreatment by the others or was it from “ninja training”?

Cerberus: Security and intelligence gathering device. It doesn’t think on the spot. It retrieves info, then something decides, then it kills. Gathered info on Juliet, then it decided it didn’t like her, then it returned for the kill.

Locke: Did he have the black eye when they showed him “Cooper” or is it apparent that they roughed him up a little subsequent to this?

Sawyer: How many times has Sawyer been conned so far? I can count 3. He takes the bait every time

Submarine: Why a sub? Is there an underwater wormhole or is their a reef out there that is not safely negotiable (with an underwater cave or other breach in the reef)?

oddjob

Did anyone notice Locke's facial expression, when Kate asked about Rousso?

I felt Locke was hiding something. It's pretty clear the others don't know Rousso is out there and Locke's did'nt want Kate to talk about it.

I think Locke is still on the clock! something is going to blow up in the finale.

Also, the others seem to know everything about the 815's. I'm wondering if they know who Desmond is?

Also, Is Jack going to meet his sister? Will Juliet tell him?


Cihan

Did you also notice a bandage on Locke's fist? Was that there before? If not, does this mean his fist met Cooper's face?

SMKGrl

SCihan

Or did the brand meet Locke's hand?

As soon as I saw the bandage, and heard his speech, I thought he got initiated into the group with a good ol' branding.

Women get it on their backs (tramp stamps), men get it on their lower arm/wrist.

Radzinsky

@ JackedupLockedown

I'm unfortunately busy today, but I intend to paste your entire Island timeline in here and throw in some comments in brackets, and maybe we can tune it up a bit.

You know I'm with you on the theory that the whispers/thoughts have something to do with Smokey, and that Smokey is somehow involved with telepathy. However, I have to go ahead and contradict myself here and say that I don't know that anyone is *controlling* Smokey. I originally thought he was controlled by the Others, who had some mild telepathic capability themselves. But if Juliet truly admitted that they don't know what Smokey is and they don't know how to control it (as it careened into the sonic fence), then we both sort of have to reject that theory, don't we?

@ those of us theorizing about Smokey

Here are a few ground rules that you must keep in mind if you're going to conjecture about Smokey

(1) In addition to the roars and crashes, Smokey makes a series of very mechanical sounds, including a winch-like sound and the ever-popular paper printing sound (I can't hear a taxi cab print a receipt any more without thinking about Smokey). Therefore, we shouldn't be assuming that the entity is entirely mechanical.

(2) Smokey is probably named Cerberus by Dharma and others on the Island. This is from the blast door map.

(3) Cerberus is the three-headed mythical dog that guards the gates to Hell.

(4) There are "Cerberus Vents" on the Island, at least 4 of them. These are, for lack of a better term, access points where Cerberus surfaces. From this we can likely conclude that it either lives or is housed underground.

(5) Cerberus can "read" memories from individual's minds. It took an imprint of Eko's mind, it likely did the same thing to Juliet (the 4 flashes that were mentioned previously), and it may have done the same thing to Locke when it met him in the jungle in episode 4, "Tabula Rasa."

(6) Cerberus likely has something to do with the appearance of Jack's Dad, Christian Shepard, and Eko's brother, Yemi, on the Island. A more controversial theory is that Cerberus is either taking the form of these people or is animating their corpses, but keep that in mind.

(7) Assuming that Cerberus took the form of Yemi, we think it may have some role in "judging" people -- as it judged Eko, seeking his confession.

(8) Cerberus has killed the pilot of flight 815 and Mr. Eko. It has specifically encountered Locke and now Juliet. It has chased Charlie, Jack and Kate.

(9) Rousseau referred to Cerberus as a "security system".

So... as long as you're trying to theorize about Smokey/Cerberus, try to keep your ideas consistent with and within the confines of the things we already know about it for sure.

@ those of us questioning Juliet's motives

I, for one, don't know whether Juliet is perfectly genuine now or not. Do I think the story is more complicated than her simply being left behind for good by the Others? Probably. Juliet herself is becoming somewhat of a mystery. The kung-fu training comes to mind initially when you think of that, but her move handcuffing herself to Kate is also pretty clever (even underhanded).

However, for those of you simply thinking that she's an Others' plant in the Losties' camp, I would say this: been there, done that. We've had Goodwin, we've had Ethan. I don't think the writers are going to give us a redux of already hashed out plots. Juliet is much more complicated than that now.

We know that Juliet was essentially kidnapped against her will -- I think we'll see more of that next week (what else would creepy Ethan be doing in that sweatshirt if not something sinister). And we know that she resents and perhaps even wants to take revenge on the people that did this to her.

Juliet may have ulterior motives in joining the Losties, or it may just be that she doesn't want to be alone. Perhaps she's fallen for Jack and wants to stay near him. Either way, she's not acting as Ben's agent and she's not a "plant" in the Losties camp.

Here's a random thought for you all: if the Others are genuinely leaving Juliet behind, does that mean they no longer need her skills as a fertility doctor? And what might that mean?

Have a good weekend, everyone.

~Radzinsky

Radzinsky

Oops... addendum to point #1 of the Cerberus section of my post above...

I meant to say that we shouldn't assume that Smokey is entirely SUPERNATURAL.

Cihan

Great rundown Radzinsky. I agree with your Cerberus points. Speaking of Cerberus...

@ SMKGrl, although I dont think Locke was branded, you've got me pondering something. A primary reason for branding someone is so that people know that the person is branded. Now the Others dont seem like a particularly large group, you'd think everyone would know each other, right? So maybe the branding is for non-Others to recognise her for what she is. Maybe even...Smokey itself? Maybe this is why Smokey scanned her, because she was branded. And maybe this is why people are branded as punishment, to be ultimately judged by Smokey. We've never seen Smokey interact with the Others wandering in the jungle, maybe because Smokey doesnt consider them any kind of threat, but now that Juliet is branded she's just as vulnerable as the Losties.

What do you guys think? Bit of a weak theory, unless they're counting on Smokey to have x-ray vision or something. The theory can be extended to non-Smokey non-Others on the island too.

Radzinsky

@ Cihan

Thanks. I have to say, I'm not sure that the branding serves as a marker for Smokey to pick up on. To the best of our knowledge, Eko wasn't branded, the Flight 815 pilot certainly wasn't branded -- neither was Locke, assuming he's had some sort of similar interaction with Smokey.

Juliet's brand was an alternative punishment to death, which she deserved under Others "law" for trying to have Jack kill Ben. I'm not sure that attracting Smokey is part of that punishment as well. Maybe the purpose of the brand was quite simply to *hurt* Juliet for what she had done, short of killing her. Corporeal punishment.

Now then, the brand itself might have some significance, but maybe not to Smokey.

~Radzinsky

Cihan

Yep, those are the massive flaws in this impromptu theory, heh. I was thinking though, the concept of branding is for people to recognise a person in a certain way, and its not like the society of Others is so big that people dont know each other and require a branding to recognise someone who's done something. So from that I was thinking maybe the branding wasnt to so much to shame her in the presence of her group (and its not even her group, she's from the states), but to warn others on the island of what she's done, maybe a mysterious third group led by Jacob, or Smokey, etc, etc. Smokey wouldnt just approach people with the brand, but maybe the brand does have some kind of significance, and thats why it took snaps of Juliet. When it did take snaps I was wondering why after three years on the island is Juliet only being snapped now? Maybe the branding attributed to it.

Just brainstorming anyway. I totally agree with your description of the makeup of Cerberus though, I really cant wait to see its (and the island's) bowels one day.

Radzinsky

I'm confused as you are as to why Juliet was only snapped now. The simplest explanation (I gather Occam's Razor is a popular theory around here) is that Juliet never had occasion to wander out in the jungle with the rest of the Others and therefore never encountered Cerberus.

However, another explanation -- even though I know I've already been disproved to a large extent -- is that Cerberus is acting out the Others' wishes, or more specifically, Ben's wishes.

I think the notion that every action that Cerberus has taken essentially helps the others is pretty valid. I'll break them down quickly:

(1) Cerberus kills the pilot of Flight 815
The man who knows the most about contacting the outside world, where they crashed, how they might get off, etc. Wouldn't the Others/Ben want that?

(2) Cerberus herds Jack, Charlie & Kate away from the cockpit
This keeps the Losties away from all the most sophisticated computer and navigational equipment on the Island? Wouldn't the Others/Ben want that?

(3) Cerberus meets/almost kidnaps Locke
Smokey nearly drags Locke down into one of his vents. Who is most interested in Locke? Ben. Why? Ben wants to know why the Island heals Locke and won't heal him. Now, the Others have Locke. Maybe Cerberus grabbing him before was an earlier attempt to get him. So, here again Cerberus acts to the Others benefit.

(4) Cerberus kills Eko
Ben and Eko meet after Eko has killed two Others, grew two beard-braids, cut them off and gave them to Ben. And we see Ben act awfully confused (rare for him). He doesn't know what to make of Eko. Right after that, Cerberus is VERY interested in Eko -- trying to decide whether he's a *good* man or a *bad* man. When Eko fails to repent for his murders (including the murders of the Others), Cerberus kills him. Shouldn't Ben and the Others be happy with that result?

(5) Cerberus "reads" Juliet
And now Juliet has openly conspired against Ben, she may be acting against the Others and she's been pretty much banished from their camp. Maybe Ben and the Others aren't sure where she stands any more? Does Juliet need to be judged in the same way that Eko was? Now that she's kicked out of the Others, would the Others want to keep tabs on her, maybe with Smokey?

* * * * *

Now of course all of this flies right in the face of Juliet's statement last week about Smokey that "we don't know what it is," etc., and so -- going back to our friend Occam -- my explanation just can't hold much water. On the other hand, this is the best I can do at trying to find a pattern behind the Smokey/Cerberus behavior... especially the pilot being killed. I don't think it was a random act of violence, I think we need a decent reason for why he died. Right now, all I have to go on was the simple fact that he died *because* he was a pilot. Anyone have any better ideas?

~Radzinsky

Radzinsky

Oh, and one more addition... perhaps the most important one of all...

(6) Rousseau calls is a "security system"
A security system for who? For Dharma? For the Others? Follow this line of thought out logically: (a) Rousseau may very well be Dharma; (b) Dharma and the Others were at "war" (the Purge); (c) Rousseau is scared of the Others
(d) Rousseau is scared of Cerberus; (e) Rousseau calls Cerberus a security system; (f) Rousseau wouldn't be scared of a Dharma security system; (g) therefore, Cerberus is an Others security system.

Just one more thought to add on to the pile.

Ready for the counterarguments now.

Jamie (c)

@ ~Rad - Juliet not knowing Smokey/Cerberus is BS, at least I don't buy it.

She's been there for 3 years (so she says) and has been on treks with Ben (to the Pearl) and of course Ben HAS to have seen it having lived there 'all his life'. Do we assume he's never told her? Not buying it.

My theory still stands that the whole thing with Kat was staged help get Juliet into the Losties' camp, for reasons yet to be divulged.

Smokey was part of the puppet show, designed to scare Kate into forming some odd bond with Juliet.

I'm shocked that Kate is buying ANYTHING Juliet says, after Jules produced the fraking key to the handcuffs. It invalidated everything that preceded that in my opinion.

Juliet is Ben's padawan, pure and simple.

Radzinsky

@ Jaime (c)

Well, if you're right, and Juliet will be a bad, bad girl all along, my theory on the Others controlling Smokey can hold up.

If I had to justify your "Juliet as Ben's Padawan" theory, it would go something like this:
(1) Ben and Juliet have romantic history
(2) Ben likely has a portrait of Juliet in his house
(3) Ben and Juliet seemed fine on their excursion to the Pearl Station together
(4) Juliet was chosen to meet Jack because she looked like his ex-wife
(5) And so, Ben and Juliet are still in cahoots and this is all part of one big plan

But, if I was disagreeing with you, I'd say:
(1) Juliet was probably forcibly kidnapped from Miami to join the Others
(2) Juliet and Ben seem to be at odds, even when nothing is at stake (i.e. the book club meeting)
(3) Juliet and Ben have been willing to kill each other on many separate occasions: flooding Jack's cell, killing Ben on the operating table, ordering Juliet's death before Jack bargained Ben down to just branding
(4) Juliet seems to be genuinely attracted to Jack
(5) Juliet blames the Others for the murder of her ex-husband (though I suppose this could go in either column)
(6) Juliet wasn't allowed to go home for 3 years & change
(7) Had Locke not blown up the sub, Juliet and Jack would have left the Island
(8) Juliet shot Pickett in cold blood
(9) And so, Juliet could be genuinely against the Others now and may have cast her lot with the Losties

I lean towards the second view, that Juliet isn't Ben's padawan. But this is a pretty close call.

~Radzinsky

Cihan

100.

@ Radzinsky. For your point F, Rousseau would be scared of a Dharma security system if it was out of control, which is what I usually assume Smokey is. One of those 'failed experiments that gained sentience' type situations.

All my other points cant be proven or disproven, they're just wild baseless speculation, lol. But it would be a real stretch to think that Juliet has not encountered Smokey in the last 3 years. As we've seen in Paulo's flashback, she does wander into the jungle with Ben at least.

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