LOSTCasts 53: Catch-22

This latest podcast focuses on season 3, episode 17 of LOST, Catch-22. In the podcast, themes of destiny vs. free-will abound as we talk about Desmond's backstory, the love "square" between Jack, Kate and Sawyer, and Desmond's "camping trip" across the island.

Download podcast #53 here

Links related to the podcast:
The Fuselage - General reactions
Wikipedia - Backgammon
Wikipedia - Sacrifice of Issac
Charlie holding parachute in Desmond's flash
No, it's not an iPhone
Wikipedia - Catch 22
J. Wood on Catch-22
Catch 22 book on Amazon
Catch 22 DVD on Amazon

LOST links:
TV Guide - No flashbacks in ep. 19?
MSNBC - 5 shows that should be canceled
Races between Superman and The Flash
Juliet's back "brand" on Cadbury Eggs

We'll see you next week! Stay LOST.

Comments

[MJJW]

Yay, I can stop working productively now! Thanks guys! MW

[Drederick_Tatum]

It's probably been mentioned already, but go and rent "Smokin' Aces". Jack and Dr. Alpert have a cool scene together.

[Brian Holmes]

Hey! Great podcast! I made a side by side image of Hurley sitting down in Tabula Rasa (the third episode of season 1) and One of Us (the most recent episode in which Hurley takes a seat).

He actually looks like he has lost some weight.

Here's the link:

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/5853/snapshot20070422121704vo6.png

[Sobaika]

Thanks guys!

And yeah, it does look like Hurley lost some weight.

[Cihan]

1] Too much Jorge-bashing lately! Bad form.

2] 24 reached its zenith in season 3, everything afterwards has been inexplicabely lame (more so than usual!). Its more funnier than Family Guy these days. (seriously, the creepy old peado character is not funny anymore, just creepy)

3] LOL@Mariah Carey scream.

4] Definitely the worst photoshopped photo in TV production history. They're slacking.

5] My current opinion remains that white haired lady was actually a third party (Smokey, etc) taking her image and manipulating Desmond as he hallucinated. Why the third party chose her, remains to be seen.

6] lol@Airwolf.

7] Good discussion about helicopters, something is definitely up. I guess we should concentrate on the propellor aspect as opposed to an actual helicopter. Just like the initial sound of the monster was a red herring.

8] In regards to the official podcast's hinting that there may be a third mystery man who may be the father of Sun's baby... If the father of Sun's baby turns out to be Michael, via flashback mode, I will yelp like a girl.

[Conrad from Pennsylvania]

I think MSNBC should be cancelled!!! Especially after airing that Manifesto!!!

[frankmorris]

Now I know what inspired that Seinfeld 'foot race' episode w/ all the Superman references.

@ Cihan

Jorge bashing?...Because Hurley's weight was discussed?

[DocArzt]

Visit this link for some information on the guy who suggested that LOST be canceled:

http://www.thetailsection.com/lost-news/12300-people-think-lost-should.php#comments

[Cihan]

@ frankmorris, I remember a few digs at Jorge's weight in previous podcasts this season. I'm not saying the LostCast gang have been taking the piss, but that comments via listeners have been made at Jorge, which arent that funny or even interesting really. Its a disservice to the actor, and like the LostCast gang say in this podcast: his weight is irrelevant to the show at this point. The show brought the topic up to humour nitpicky fans, and now the food-drop and Dharma stash have put to rest the weight issue so why should it be discussed any more? There is more to Hugo and Jorge than his weight.

[Mark B]

Just what I need after riding my bike Houston - Austin (160 miles) in two days.

Thanks guys, going for a lie down and listen now.

[rok]

guys, re: jorge, it's the hair length and facial hair. seriously, even i look lighter when i chop my hair short and shave. i also look like i'm twelve. ;-)

[jg]

Subject: Portuguese, Magnetic field, Exploration

May I humbly submit my observations and conclusions?

Observations:

Magellan was Portuguese. His travels brought him directly though the region whereas to fore the Island was felt to reside.

The monitoring of the Earth’s magnetic status is most efficiently and most aggressively monitored and researched in the Polar Regions.

Conclusions:

The Island has a great and ostensibly growing magnetic field generation capacity. The DHARMA initiative developed a means of “Degaussing” the field. How this was done earlier…I do not know. An uncontrolled shift in the magnetic poles may indeed have catastrophic effects on our planet. This may cause us all to die…as Ms Hawking suggested. Thus, entering the numbers was a degaussing process. Without this degaussing, the magnetic field will now grow until it results in planetary catastrophe.

The field will grow. First knocking out local ‘high tech’ devices, e.g. helicopters, jets, submarines…then…who knows…

The Portuguese know something of this region that the rest of us do not,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Magellan

[idjk]

@jg

Interesting extrapolation on the degaussing theory. It now seems perfectly reasonable (if not scary!) given the context of events...

We'll see what Naomi brings.

[badger_moldy]

Just getting the podcast now! But with regard to the comments so far about the photoshopped picture of the monk and Ms. Hawking: my guess is it was made so poorly so we (the viewers) would have our attention drawn to it. All this talk about production values and stuff seems like a load of bull to me. Remember the Widmore Construction clue on the Battersea Power Station in "Fire + Water"? No one saw it after promises from the writers that there would be a huge easter egg reveal. The writers know that the serious fans (over)analyze every little detail, so something that shoddy had to be an attention grabber. If it wasn't MEANT to be seen by the viewers it could have been fixed easily in post-production.

badger_moldy

[my-2-cents]

"...in which Doc Waxman opens a can on MSNBC & the ratings unabombers"

RATINGS:
BTW, this NOT directed at the Lostcaster trio in any way, but rather to a certain segment of ratings "pseudo-journalists." From the viewer's perspective, Why grant TV pollsters so much influence? Really! When was the last time LOST's TPTB locked goose steps with those morons, anyway? Personally, I could care less about persnickety (or "pernickety" if you're Scottish), fruitless articles that discuss TV ratings or predictable comparisons to tired shows. Are we actually supposed to be enlightened by those killjoys, or just highly upset? 95% of us (no poll needed) are here right now because we love LOST come what may. The other 5% should drop out of The Great Tivo Society and join a Scottish monastery rather than try to define wired pop culture for the rest of us with baseless rants. Those kinds of ersatz folks never bring anything with them to the pinic table but are quick to complain about everyone else's home cooking. Switzerland is an equally spineless clique of people run by opinion polls, and THEIR most infamous "collaborations" are certainly nothing to brag about. I for one cannot meekly follow the Ratings Bee-otches like that. If a few depressive maudlins feel they can find better sci-fi provender elsewhere, then go with God. But we don't need their brand of plastic, misinformed vitriol & venom to drag us down! Break out the popcorn, put away the Iridium satellite phone, and ENJOY the damn show! There, I said it!

Doc Waxman - this time, it's personal!

[my-2-cents]

CRAZY CADBURY THEORY:

I think Juliet's Cadbury/Ummo Symbol branding will actually be revealed as a mark of initiation, officially inducting her into Ben's inner circle as a reward for furthering his ongoing plot against the Losties. Deep down, maybe her heart is with the beach-dwellers, but hasn't yet decided how or when to betray Ben. Ben's got a serious hold on her for the moment, but fully expects a deflection from her and has planned on some violent contingencies. Juliet tolerated the scorched flesh knowing it would be a while before she could make a clean break from The Others. She may just get her chance in the finale.

Doc Waxman

[Cordell Cunningham]

Your show description mentioned the theme of destiny vs. free-will. I am currently taking an Intro to Philosophy class and we recently covered free-will. My first thought were Locke's ideas, which we did not cover in class. Searching on the internet, I found this:
"Locke's example of a man locked into a room in which he prefers to stay. The man desires to stay in the room, is able to do so, and is thus free by Hobbes' definition, but the man does not have the power to leave the room and is thus not free according to Locke. "

I thought this was interesting because it describes Locke's situation. He desires to be on the island because he is now able to walk again, in addition to an intrest in survival. However, under his own views (if you were to strongly connect the name correlation) he is not free.

On a somewhat separate note, I thought it was interesting how Jack told Juliet that she was one of them (castaways) because she desired to leave the island. Under Jack's definiton, Locke would be an 'other'. We saw that he willingly went with the others when they gassed everyone. As a fan of his character, I would like to believe he is being misconstrued, making Jack wrong. However, we already know that Juliet is misleading everyone on the beach because of the flashback where Ben gave her the gasmask. Since Jack's definition is already proven wrong, I hope that indicates an eventual return of Locke.

I am somewhat new to the show and had not realized until you mentioned it on your podcast that Hume was Desmond's last name. I proceeded to look up Hume's view on free-will and found that he argues for compatabilism, a mixture of belief in free-will and determinism. "We are determined because there is no getting outside the chain of cause and effect." This sort of defines Desmond's determination. This reminded me that the flashback he had of the camping trip was the first that might not have happened without the flashback. In his previous flashbacks, lightning would have struck still, and Claire (or Charlie, if you go with Desmond's vision) would still almost drown. But wait, it gets better.

My Philosophy class did not cover Hume's views on free-will but, we did cover Hume's Theory of Self. A handout I recieved stated:
"In epistemology, Hume is an empiricist: All knowledge comes from sensory experience (which means essentially our five senses plus our power to reflect upon ourselves—to experience ourselves)."

Later in the handout, it goes on the say that "Some philosophers imagine that they are at every moment conscious of a self. They are wrong. We have no idea of self.
Self = a bundle of different perceptions. These perceptions are constantly changing. One’s self has no continuing identity.
For an impression to give rise to an idea of the self, it would have to remain the same over time while the self continues in existence. This is not the case."
This made me think of Desmond's self-reflection on the interpretation of events. He may believe that, because he saved Charlie's life, the person in the parachute was not Penny. This shows that his views are compatable with the philosopher Hume's views on free-will. It also shows a possible flaw in Desmond's self-perception of his foresight ability. Interestingly enough, a flaw recognized by Desmond would only prove that Hume's views on the self are correct because it would not be a constant entity. This he may come to realize by reflecting on events (sensory perceptions) and/or his self.

On a very separate note, I thought it was interesting that Juliet has the first name she does. Should we compare Jack to Romeo, it would seem that she may eventually lead to his demise. However, I doubt Jack would kill himself over her, at least literally. When I first considered the name comparison, I was reminded of another possible connection to the famous play. The spider's bite that paralyzed Nikki and Paulo reminded me of the potion given to Juliet by the Priest in the play.

Several times in the show, we have seen the flashback where Juliet is reading Carrie. I would like to note how she assumes a similar role being sort of alienated on the beach... Except by one boy (Jack), like Carrie was. Though we know her stay on the island may be short, perhaps she will start to feel some sort of comfort before her destructive exit.

I hope my somewhat coherent rambling is useful. Hopefully such ideas can help to overcome the pseudo-intellectual stereotype being casted upon the show.

[my-2-cents]

@ Lostcasters:

**************************************************
WARNING: SPOILERS MAY JACK UP YOUR LOCKEDOWN
**************************************************

(1) Dudes, that "unlikely nemesis" is Mikhail! Described as "unlikely" 'cause he's supposed to be dead. Doc Arzt neatly pegged this one on 4/13/07.
http://www.thetailsection.com/lost-spoilers/exclusive-a-second-look-at-cat.php

(2) Looking forward to my theory about Ben's plot to get the underwater cable reconnected play out alongside your helicopter-crash-as-diversion observation. Nice catch!

**********************
OK TO LOOK NOW
**********************

Doc Waxman

[Steve Berry]

Cadbury's Creme Egg photo - spooky!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hlk/129719351/in/photostream/

[Mark B]

More old movie references ... listening to the part of the 'cast about how the island is a "real life backgammon game" I recall watching either a Sinbad or Jason and the Argonaunts type movie from the 1960's or 70's -- one of those classic ones with the skeletons fighting special effects I think -- that had scenes some of the "Gods" playing with the people on earth by sending in bizarre monsters, weird weather and other odd stuff to make them fail in their missions and then other "Gods" would do stuff to help them out afterwards.

[JackedupLockedown]

Friends, Romans, Lost-a-holics…It’s a shame that society and television are not ready for the type of thoughtful, complex, and well written drama and mystery that Lost brings to the table 23 hump days a year, but nonetheless we should not be surprised or dismayed. It’s a television stock market folks. BEAR in my mind that it’s those BULL**** advertisers who call the shots and their soft malleable brains take many of their cues from a archaic and at best arbitrary ratings system, that as far as I know was named after a “B” list celebrity best known for playing lead next to an “juicy” ex-gridironer\murderer in satirical spy spoofs.
The Television and News media has long ago stopped reporting the news and started reporting personal opinion and fashionable conjecture. Rather then be creative or unique, simply crawl into the protective shell of popular opinion and the status quo and isolate. This Ostrich like strategy becomes even more evident when you see the absurdly over-dramatic and intentionally misleading production present in each next time on Lost promo. This article by MSNBC was obviously not written by a fan or even regular viewer of Lost. Most likely he is one of the Lemmings who was charged to write an article about TV shows that are reaching their “add Oliver” moment. Sadly, like Sam the Butcher bringing Alice the meat, we gotta take it. (Sorry if that was way over the line, shout out to the Beasties)
Also make note that the people who have these magic boxes (Ironic isn’t it)are the same people that in the years since the fall of the Seinfeld Dynasty have helped propel such bravura programming as Friends, ER and American Idol to the top of the Television food chain. In addition there are three CSI shows, all of which are exactly the same and include mysteries that could be solved by a poorly trained Macaque five minutes into each mostly self contained and agonizingly outmoded episode. At any rate the content of his commentary is littered with clues suggesting just how unfamiliar he is with the show and it’s audience, which as Robert Stone correctly mentioned has remaining pretty stanch since the end of the first season.
Still for those incensed by the attack on our beloved show, our haven from the entertainment doldrums, our weekly 43 minute look into the potential of television, I in the words of Slick Willy, feel your pain. It makes me pine for the days of yester when if a man offended another man he simply remove his white glove, evenly slap the mongrel on the cheek and thus challenge him to a duel. The gauntlet was thrown down long ago by those to tepid on thought to embrace brilliance and creativity of a foreign or perhaps just unfamiliar nature. Our only recourse is to continue to support in numbers the way we have until the show losses its edge and Arthur Fonzoreli’s skis congregate with the sea.
As the writers gear up for what hopefully will be the penultimate season of Lost, I hope they will not waver from what to this point has been a dogged and venerable effort to maintain a clear, concise and consistent theme and a commitment to unraveling the lot of these absorbing Island and individual mysteries in due and appropriate time. (Redundant)

STAY LOST

P.S. So does that Brand on Juliet mean she is filled with Crème and Nougat (What is Nougat?) Mt grandmother once told me that girls were made of sugar and spice and everything nice, however based on her logic I'd have gone blind long ago.

Jackie

[my-2-cents]

@ Mark B,

I agree. This definitely feels like some version of "Clash of the Titans" with higher powers/masterminds using people as game pieces. In Lewis Carrol's "Through the Looking Glass" (same title as the May 23rd finale) the characters are literally playing the roles of walking chess pieces on a macroscale countryside chess board. Alice herself is inducted as a pawn that moves up in status as the story progresses.

Or, as the Lostcasters put it, a few rich magnates like Hanso & Widmore are placing bets on the outcome of some sort of "Most Dangerous Game." I also can't help thinking back to the wickedly funny plot in 2001's "Rat Race" movie. Can't wait! Maybe I'll give my Wikipedia monkey the Summer off:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_Of_The_Titans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Through_the_Looking-Glass

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_Dangerous_Game

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_race

Doc Waxman

[jg]

@ Jackie,

Well said. My computer screen is hot to the touch.
However, I must say that, we, the viewing public is to blame for termination of anything good on TV. If the advertisers think they can make more money pandering to dullards then they will do that.

Matt Jones suggested a movie "Idiocracy". I took the suggestion . I also recommend it. (Not for the kids)

[AdamLogan]

good podcast, but you guys didn't mention how Abraham's son Isaac had a son named Jacob. There must be some connection there. And I guess if you want to really get speculative, you could see how if Desmond represents Abraham, and Charlie represents Isaac, wouldn't Aaron represent Jacob? And if so, that would help with the whole time shift theory of the Others actually being the descendants of the Losties...but that's really just going out on a limb. The main interesting thing is the connection to the name Jacob through the story of Abraham and Isaac.

[my-2-cents]

Tenuous similarities in LOST to Lewis Carrol's "The Hunting of the snark"

Dark tale of an ill-fated sea voyage with a misfit crew; told in non-sensical rhyming poetry.

References to the number 42:
Rule 42 of the Code: "No one shall speak to the Man at the Helm."
The Baker had "forty-two boxes, all carefully packed..."
Also, Lewis Carroll was 42 when he wrote "Snark" & earlier displayed obsession with the number 42.

Jacob's mysterious identity is like "Boots'" highly mysterious role wrapped up in Carrol's story right to the end. Conspicuously, Boots' is the only character never depicted in the original book's illustrations. The suggestion is that he was the murderer/creature all along.

Smoke Monster = Snark, or Boojum (?)

Mysterious "JubJub" bird = the "Hurley" bird?

Crazy Leonard = "Banker" who went insane?

The Snark creature is described as having a glass eye.

815 pilot flying blind like the Bellman's disoriented sailing.

Ominous climax of the story similar to encounters with the Smoke Monster.

Navigational quirks:
"What's the good of Mercator's North Poles and Equators,
Tropics, Zones, and Meridian Lines?"
So the Bellman would cry: and the crew would reply
"They are merely conventional signs!

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext91/snark12.txt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunting_of_the_Snark

Doc Waxman

[my-2-cents]

****************************************************
SPOILER LINKS!
CAREFUL: THEY CALL'EM "SPOILERS" FOR A REASON.
****************************************************

"The Man Behind the Curtain" (May 9th)
stars Sterling Beaumon as young Ben Linus,
Jon Gries as Roger Linus, & Michael Emerson's
real-life wife Carrie Preston as Emily!
http://www.abcmedianet.com/DNR/2007/pdf/dnr042307.pdf
(page 20)

"Greatest Hits" (May 16th)
Official Description (same link as above, page 6):
While Jack devises a plan to do away with "The Others" once and for all, Sayid uncovers a flaw in "The Others'" system that could lead to everyone's rescue. But it requires Charlie to take on a dangerous task that may make Desmond's premonition come true."

Sterling Beaumon
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1869029/

Jon Gries (Roger Linus)
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0340973/

"Leaked" Season 3 footage. Not very credible, but fun to watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTJ0Rm-Go8o

************************
END OF SPOILER LINKS
************************

Doc Waxman

[my-2-cents]

[lockedown klaxon]:

***************************************************
"SPOILERY SPECUALTION. AaaaOooooGaaaaah!!!"
***************************************************

In the ABC Medianet link above,
"Annie" is played by 11-year-old Madeline Carroll.
Any relation to Kate's pseudonym "Annie"
in "Tabula Rasa" (S1E3)? Coincidence?
Lindelof teased "character names in Lost
are not assigned without reason."
(O.L.P. 11/26/06)
http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/podcast?pn=podcast

***************************************
END OF SPOILERY SPECULATION
***************************************

Doc Waxman

[Joop]

The 'elaborate game' theory might explain the mysterious appearances of Libby. She may have been on the Hanso or Widmore payroll when she provided Desmond w/ a boat & when she was observing Hurley inside the institution. Then later, as a psychologist, became the inside observer.

@ Mark B

Nice point about the gods playing mortals like game pieces. I wouldn't compare Hanso & Widmore to the gods, but Ms. Hawking has now been linked to Widmore, although probablly not immortal, she doesn't seem to be confined by time & space.

I know the Desmond/Odysseus theory sort of fell by the wayside (after the time paradoxes & circular logic). I'm hoping Naomi (Athena?) will provide Desmond w/ information that will inspire him to steal back his boat & set sail again.

[Jamie (c)]

Sorry been away...back for now. Hey, I found another rotten easter egg. Remember how IMDB was listing Niki for a number of these last episodes?

Well not any longer, only in the 'greatest hits' episode (that sounds suspiciously like a clip show, but I'm sure it's not).

Just thought I would point this out if no one had yet. I think the false credits was intentional, as Paulo wasn't.

Hummmm?

[Mark B]

Another idea I was floating around is that Naomi is not from Penny but from Widmore. (As an aside I knew a girl once who's name was Naomi but called herself Penny ... is this common ?) Widmore did the double deal I think Matt suggested on Des and convinced him with reverese logic to go on the race and thereby get trapped on the island and to push the button. Naomi has been sent to find out why the button has stopped being pressed. Henry Gale was sent by Widmore (his balloon had the Widmore logo on in some screencaps/photos I saw) to check on some other time the button was not pressed soon enough maybe the time that the Yemi plane crashed. Problem here is why has it taken Widmore 90 days to send someone ?

So a slight alternative to this is that Enter 7-7 caused Widmore to get a message that something was up and they sent Naomi to investigate. Her contact is Desmond as Widmore only knows about Desmond being there for sure. Henry Gale was sent the last time Enter 7-7 was pressed which was during the Purge. Klugh or Locke blew the Flame up by manually setting off the timer.

Just a couple of ideas .. and probably full of holes.

[jg]

I have thought until now that the 7-7 code did transmit a distress call. This brought the chopper/parachutist. But how did this call go out? The writers have made it plain that the Others have lost communication, "the coms are down"

[Mark B]

@jg

Damn and blast I'd forgotten about the "comms being down" comment. Scratch the alternative and back to Widmore sending Naomi as the button was not pushed and 815 came down. Still not sure why it took them 90 days to get their helicopter plan together ... far more likely she is sent by Penny.

[jg]

@ Mark B,
Just thought of something...what if losing communication alerted the outside forces that something has gone wrong. Then "they" send in an investigator.

Or it has taken Penny this long to marshal resources/personel to investigate the anomaly. For some reason she associates desmond with the anomaly...why...?

[sam]

guys, just keep in mind, MSNBC also had Don Imus, so I don't think that these guys really have any credit on this topic. I mean, they probably should have cancelled him after day 1.

[Mark B]

subject: who does Naomi work for ....

How long is it since the "puple sky incident" led to Penny finding out where the island was ?

Not long --- according to Lostpedia it's now day 86-87 and the season 2 finale was days 65-67 assuming the key turning was in day 67 then it's 20 days.

If it's Penny then it's taken less than three weeks to get the helicopter operation set-up and to the island. Either Penny (or Widmore) have lots of resources or it's been set up for a while -- may be the latter as Penny has been searching for sometime (3 years) and she could have Naomi on stand-by.

So which is more believable it's taken Widmore or some other nefarious agency 87 days to get their operation in order to get to the island (presumably a major project for them) or it's taken Penny just 20 days on her own with her Dads cash --- which I assume he's not readily giving as he's not likely to want Penny finding Desmond given he seems to think Des is lower than a small piece of gum stuck to the bottom of his shoe.

I'm going with Penny, who has already found Des once.

[JackedupLockedown]

@ Mark B and jg

Something I think is important to keep in mind is that the enter 77 option only became available after it was first established that the dish system and sonor were inoperable. Perhaps there was a primitive way to send an outgoing message. Nothing comes to mind but it must be considered. Ben said the Sub could leave one more time but not come back, perhaps enter 77 works under the same premise.

My personal opinion is that this is something independent of Dharma, Widmore or the others. This is Penny, on her own, finding Desmond and sending someone in with the hopes of getting him out. We know she wants to find Desmond, logicially she could find out about the Island conidering the Widmore Labs connection. We know the men at the listening station quickly phoned her after detecting the EM Anomoly. They spoke Portaguese, the Catch-22 book was in said langauge. Naomi said Desmonds name, of all the people left living, he is the only one to have come to the Island alone. So to me the evidence is overwhelming that Penny is behind this.

[Mark B]

@Jacked

True so true Naomi SHOULD be working for Penny, Occams and all that, but as I've discussed with some real people (as opposed to cyber-people) one of the 'problems' they are having with LOST is that nobody is who they seem and everyone is potentially double dealing or has their own agenda so it's impossible to tell who is working for whom, and who wants what. It is so prevalent now that anything anyone says that can possibly be read in more than one way is read in 100 ways.

[CLOP]

I am not sure if anyone has ever talked about this, but Jack and Desmond are the only losties that know each other outside the island, right? They are the only ones I can remember that have had direct contact with each other off the island. It occurred to me when Desmond asked Jack for the first aid kit. I am not a regular reader of the forums so forgive me if this has been said before.

[jg]

Subject: Des/Jack
Has either of them ever acknowledged that fact?

[Kristen]

Is the woman in the picture on the desk/jewelry store woman the same woman presiding at Juliet's 'trial'?

[Mark B]

subject: ring lady/trial lady
No, look a bit alike but not the same. The ring lady is older and English the trial lady is American ... I think.

subject: Jack/Des
Jack and Des have never been seen talking about meeting off island that I'm aware of. I think the chat they had in the stadium was one of those passing conversations neither has remembered. Remember it's been three years. Though there was a look on Jacks face when he saw Des the first time that did look a bit like recognition but it may have just been surprise. I need to watch the episode again.

[MusselsFromBrussels]

Caught this on Digg and thought of all you lostcasts :
Michael Emmerson has a role in a training video for the Federal Prison Bureau on how to restrain an unruly inmate

http://brocktoon.net/LOST/Henry_from_Lost.php

Can we say creepy ?

[chris in oly]

RE: Jack and Desmond

While running away from the Hatch, Desmond and Jack discussed whether the patient survived surgery and could walk. Jack said he married her. So they have talked about it briefly.

[frankmorris]

The station at the end of season 2 could easily have been in the Antarctic, & the Portuguese personel, presumably from the southern hemisphere, would point to the island being located at the south pole. There's a problem w/ that though, as someone has mentioned, at the poles it's day half the year & night the other half. Is this addressed in the works of fiction w/ the similar scenario?

[Bad Man]

stop being mean to Jorge!its not his fault hes packing enough to feed a family for a year

[Bad Man]

stop being mean to Jorge!its not his fault hes packing enough to feed a family for a year

[Mike in the Box]

@ Mussels

I checked out that video and I remember watching it in a training. I work for a juvenile detention center. That was hilarious. Thanks for spotting it and posting it.

[Fun Time Hurley]

re: Jack & Des

as chris in oly mentioned, they had that conversation in the jungle... and remember Jack's 1st word to Des - "You!" He recognized him right away.

[BrianS]

Re: Juliet's mark/brand
This is a stretch, but...
Thanks Wikipedia:
John Cadbury founded the confection company in Birmingham, England in 1824. Cadbury was brought up as a Quaker and was not permitted to go to university or join the army. He took to a trade and decided on cocao, or "God food," as his passion. Cadbury also believed that alcohol was the cause of many social problems and believed in social reform.

He was married twice, and his first wife died after only 2 years of marriage. He had 7 children with his second wife. His TWO OLDEST SONS took over the family business (BENJAMIN and Richard).

To maintain their father's feelings on temperance, the two sons founded a worker's village outside Birmingham called Bournbrook. The village has remained dry to this day and has successfully warded off alcohol vendors and suppliers within its small area.

[BrianS]

Re: Desmond's visitor
I am conflicted here. Although I think Penny sent Naomi to find Des, why wouldn't she go herself? She must know something about daddy's island in the Pacific. The call from the scientists in the listening post must have confirmed it. If 20 days have passed, she should have had enough time to prepare for the trip herself. If she really loved Des, that's what she would do.

[Tahir]

Thanks for another great podcast.

I love the idea of a monkey being on the show.
I SO see Sawyer befriending a monkey.They could go on great jungle adventures together.

To further the plot, 'The Others' kill the monkey and then Sawyer goes on a mission to hunt down the monkey murdering others.

I SO this as one of the greatest Lost episodes ever. ;)

[my-2-cents]

@ Mark B, JG, JackedupLockedown, Brain S

TPTB: Penny sent Naomi.
http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/podcast?pn=podcast
(OLP 4/20/07)

Doc Waxman

[BrianS]

Thanks Doc - Still begs the question: Why didn't Penny go herself if she loves Des?

[JackedupLockedown]

WARNING I HAVE SOLVED THE SHOW SO DON"T READ THIS IF YOU DON"T WANT TO KNOW THE SECRETS OF THE ISLAND AND THE NUMBERS AND TPTB THAT ARE NEHIND THIS ALL

As it turns out there are a group of "FIVE HORSEMAN" Responsible for this all. Two members were sacrificed and the remaining three have refused to comment...

Flight 815 Crashed on September 22nd 2004

Also on that day: The Professional Wrestler "The Big Boss Man" died at the age of 42

The Big Boss Man teamed with Akeem the African Dream to form the "Twin Towers" Akeem often would use the "747 SPLASH" to set up his finishing move.

The Oceanic flight 815 was a 747 and the tail section splashed...

After Akeem brought down the plane it landed on a BEACH...one of the stars of the Show is named SUN...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2c/Onemangang.jpg/200px-Onemangang.jpg

TIM STACK was once the star of "SUN of the BEACH" coincidence, I think not.
*This also proves Tim Stack is the father of Suns Baby.

http://ia.ec.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/I/09/45/02/10m.jpg

Stack can now be seen on "My name is Earl" with ETHAN SUPLEE who plays Randy.

Suplee became popular as a secondary character on "Boy meets world". He played a dim-witted Bully.

Boy meets World is an anagram for "LOST EMBRYO DEW"
This expalins the mothers dying...They are losing Embryo dew clearly.

Embryonic Stem Cells are derived from BLASTOCYST;

Blastocyst sounds like the name of a super robot that can FLY.

Musca domestica, or the common house FLY, lays about 8,000 EGGS.

EGGS come in containers of one dozen or tweleve 16-4 = 12.

Want more proof...

EGGS are the main ingredient in DENVER Omelets...

John DENVER sang "Rocky Mountain High"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f5/John_Denver_Portrait.jpeg/220px-John_Denver_Portrait.jpeg

The song was named Colorado's official state Song 23 years after it was written. While Denver himself was born in 1943...42-23 = 19 and 4+8+15+16= 43 (WOW HUH?)

Now I know what your thinking...Okay so the Numbers are a creation of Akeem The African Dream, The Big Boss Man, Randy from my name is Earl, Tim Stack and John Denver to bring down the plane. I know easy but, what about the Smoke Monster and The Others you ask? And hey what about Dharma Initative, right? Well fear not.

Akeem The African Dream.....20 letters
The Big Boss Man............13 letters
Randy from my name is Earl..21 letters
Tim Stack....................8 letters
John Denver.................10 letters
Total.......................72 letters
+
Smoke Monster...............12 letters
Others.......................6 letters
The Dharma Initative........18 letters
Total.......................36 letters

72 + 36 = 108

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:4zDXdCC4NWQimM:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/OH-108.svg/750px-OH-108.svg.png

So there you go finially a grand uniting theory with no holes I understand if no one ever posts again.

are you as LOST as me?

Jackie

[Joop]

@ Jackedup

Step away from the sweat hut. :)

[Mark B]

I would like to claim this idea as my own but I can't I heard it somewhere ....

Libby is another of the "Time Team" that make Des get to the island. She gave him the boat. So along with Ms Hawking (the ring lady who stopped Des marrying Penny) and Brother Campbell (who introduced Des to Penny and perhaps selected Des as he was a good candidate after his monk training) we have three people who are manouvering Des to the island.

Not sure if we'll have more people on the team or three is all there is. When Des met Jack in the stadium he mentioned he nearly became a doctor so assumption is that he was talked/manouvered out of it so that would make four. Also we have the army cowardice charge so perhaps a fifth person is involved there. Is Des the hero and I wonder if anyone can connect the dots to "Gods" playing with Des in a similar way that in the myths the Gods played with Jason or whoever it was.

[chris in oly]

Re: Why Penny sent Naomi

Umm...maybe because it is a dangerous mission to an island that may or may not be acessable. Penny does not even know if this is the island Desmond washed up on. If we think about Amelia Aerhart, and how many places they looked for her, it would seem a little unreasonable to have Penny go personally to each strange island they come across. She may have a mission to Atlantis and a mission to the center of the earth at the same time she is sending Naomi to the Lost Island. She may be a busy lady, investigating all the other islands out there ;-)

[jg]

@ Jackie and Joop,
How do I get me one of them sweat huts...?

[Joop]

@jg

a few felled trees
a couple of tarpaulins
a bucket of water
a pile of stones
a ladle
a bowl w/ water & peyote- mix well
laptop optional (not recommended)

[Nash]

Reverse Speech in Catch-22!

When reversed you can clearly hear Hurley saying, "Hey, can you hear me?" in Desmond's flash-forward sound effect right after Charlie says "Right, well I guess it's supposed to happen without me". Pretty cool:
http://www.twogianthamsters.com/2007/04/reverse-speech-in-catch-22.html

[BrianS]

LOL @ Jackie!

That's a post for the archives, for sure!

[BrianS]

Someone brought up a good point...What about Libby? Did we ever find out what she was doing at the psyche hospital? Coul dshe have been there to conduct recon on Hurley? Could she have been sent my the Others and then planted to be Hurley's love interest? ben didn't anticipate Michael shooting her and had to devise another plan to infiltrate the beach folk, so he set up the elaborate scheme with Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sawyer...Sending only Hurley back because he KNEW how Libby's loss would affect him???

Ben's all about leverage. He lost his leverage with Ben by losing Libby. So, he set out to gain leverage another way...Jack/Juliet.

Crafty!

[BrianS]

Sorry. I just realized all of my typos above. I'll repost here:

*******************

Someone brought up a good point...What about Libby? Did we ever find out what she was doing at the psyche hospital? Could she have been there to conduct recon on Hurley? Could she have been sent my the Others and then planted to be Hurley's love interest? Ben didn't anticipate Michael shooting her and devised another plan to infiltrate the beach folk. So he set up the elaborate scheme with Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sawyer...Sending only Hurley back because he KNEW how Libby's loss would affect him???

Ben's all about leverage. He lost his leverage with Hurley by losing Libby. So, he set out to gain leverage another way...Jack/Juliet.

Crafty!

[my-2-cents]

@ Nash

I love all audio clues! Some are just funny.
Here's one not nearly as credible, but a real winner at getting people to tear each other up in comments (same link) afterward over whether "DorkUFO" is a better "Lostigator" than "ThEmIsFiT" himself. Makes me pine away for the good old days watching "Hot Seat."
R.I.P. Wally George.

http://themisfitishere.blogspot.com/2007/02/jack-is-jacob-reverse-speech-audio.html

Doc Waxman

[Waltseesdeadpeople]

JackedupLockeddown

That was priceless

The part about eggs and John Denver, and then the link to pictures of Stack, Denver and Akeem...wow. I think you have solved it, if not that show should be in production tomorrow morning.

Also The thing about Denver's birth year just shows how powerful coincidence is when you examine closely.

[my-2-cents]

David Hume's "SEQUENCES OF EVENTS" Theory!

According to the producers, our "brotha" DESMOND
(Desmond David Hume) really did travel to his past, reliving events from 1996.
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Official_Lost_Podcast/February_20%2C_2007

This "(Entropy) Arrow of Time" article
( @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_of_time )
mentions philosopher David Hume's theory
on how we perceive the flow of time:

"Perceptions of events are actually
perceptions of 'SEQUENCES OF EVENTS.'"

This really should tickle LOST fans' ears since we don't
wanna be "enslaved" by just any sci-fi theory of "time & space." "Arrow Of Time" theory has quite a big impact on the natural sciences like psychology & QUANTUM MECHANICS! Not sure how all this jibes with the overall sci-fi arc to explain what's really happening with the island.

Any thoughts? :)

******************************************
[The "Wiki-Monkey" & I stumbled on all this
stuff while looking up info related to Doc Arzt's
"Theory - Guys WTF Are We - The Violet Solution"
( http://www.thetailsection.com/lost-news/theory-guys-wtf-are-we-the-vio.php#more ).

Following my own pet theory that temperature references
(KELVIN, Marvin CANDLE/ Mark WICK-mund, FLAME station)
might point to a sci-fi "Heat death of the universe" scenario
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe ),
I followed lots of related links in Wikipedia that may also relate to LOST's grand sci-fi theory, including Doc Arzt's "Big Crunch" idea, "Omega Point (Tipler)," "Computational universe theory," "Ultimate fate of the universe," "Quantum Mind," "Quantum Consciousness," "Quantum Tunneling," "Wormholes," nd "Electromagnetic theories of consciousness."
Also caught a great WIRED magazine article that blew my mind:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.12/holytech.html
Quite enough monkey-spanking for one day!]
******************************************

Doc Waxman

[Cameron]

There is a MASSIVE, MASSIVE spoiler that was just posted on spoilerfix.com about the ending sequence in D.O.C. If it is true, it changes everything.

[my-2-cents]

"ISAAC ASIMOV's ANSWER TO LOST's PURPLE SKY"

If JACOB does turn out to be a computer, then this might work along with the "Heat Death" scenario I posted above to play out as some version of Isaac Asimov's best-loved sci-fi story "The Last Question." Basically, an incarnation of the super-computer "Multivac" shines as the computer-God that figures out (at the request of supposed super-humans) how to reverse extreme entropy and the NATURAL COLLAPSE OF SPACE AND TIME.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Question

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

Not far off from high-minded scientists trying to figure out the Valenzetti equation in order to save the world. Also jibes somewhat with the Tailsection's "Big Crunch" idea (link above). I'm sure we'd even see a "violet-shift" in the sky. A crazy-smart computer like "AC" would also inevitably CREATE - all on its own - additional entities like our Smoke Monster. Kind of a Frankenstein theme of technology gone wrong. I personally love Asimov's theme about technology not having the answers to all our problems, as in "The Singing Bell."

In fact, maybe raw emotion destroys the Smoke Monster at the series' end, the same way that an ailing geriatric "Flash" defeated the monstruous empathic entity in part 2 of Walt's Comic (formerly available on lostlinks.net). Maybe Locke unloads a lifetime of emotional pain on it so it "overloads" and self-destructs in similar fashion. Also, "Alien X" turning the FAILSAFE KEY sends out a beacon that brings the creatures to earth to avenge his own imminent death.

http://jollyblogger.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/greenlanter_flash12.jpg
(cover pic, on the right; full comic no longer available as a download; I may upload my zipped PDF version someplace in the future)

Interesting "Purple Shift" quotes here by famous quantum theorists, philosophers, mathematicians, behaviorists, astrophysicists, sci-fi writers, politicians, sociologists, climatologists, nobel laureates, theologians, etc.
http://www.purpleshift.org/
(Click on: "Collected Wisdom" and then on any of the subtopics and finally, on each of the purple orbs)

Doc Waxman

[Cordell Cunningham]

Perhaps the cadburry egg symbol is a joke by the writers. I mean the whole thing is a play on the easter egg concept of connections in the show, not to mention the episode was shown close to easter.

[my-2-cents]

NEW! Doc Jensen teases out the meaning of "D.O.C." for us:

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20036664,00.html

Jeff Jensen obviously listens to this podcast; he gives major props to a mention of Joseph Campbell's significance to LOST mythology discussions from last Sunday's audio. "Sorry, brotha (George) Campbell."
Check out this Bill Moyers info as a supplement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Moyers (about 1/3 way down).

Jeff gets also gets into Jin's encounter with a stranger in the jungle, and muses about a LOST spin-off worthy of (I think) Billy Dee Williams' return to the LOST universe.

D.O.C.
WAXMAN

[my-2-cents]

********************************************************
WARNING: SPOILER LINKS! "SMOKEY MONSTER" REMINDS US:
"ONLY YOU CAN PREVENT GETTING SPOILED !!!"
********************************************************

How many people die by Season's End? At least one named person apparently survives. Also, interesting casting for young Ben's mother "Emily."
http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Ausiello/default.aspx
(toward bottom)

Charlie Widmore shows up in May;
Charlie Hobbit has much to say.
http://www.eonline.com/gossip/kristin/

Also, "Save the Junkie, Save the World!"
http://www.eonline.com/gossip/kristin/detail/index.jsp?uuid=0298db9f-2dc1-4b57-88c1-686566bb8200
http://www.eonline.com/gossip/kristin/

********************************************************
END OF SPOILER LINKS!
********************************************************

Doc Waxman

[Mark B]

OK here's a question or three... what is there left to find out about Sun and Jins past pre-island ? What will be in their flashback this week ?

Other than the great baby father mystery what do we not know about them ?

Are we abut to find out something totally off the wall about them before they got to the island ?

[Mike in the Box]

Subject: Sun/Jin story

I hope we get something pretty interesting. I personally find their story to most uninteresting of all of our LOSTies. I could care less if they live, die, or just disappear. So I really hope that the writers have something hidden up their sleeves. If the only thing we have yet to find out is the paternity of the baby then I have a feeling their story will start to wrap up. After last week's disappointing episode, I fear another let-down, but this close to the season finale, I anticipate a thematic build-up of tension overall. Well, here's hoping I am pleasantly surprised.

btw: HAPPY LOST DAY EVERYONE!!!

[my-2-cents]

RE: SUN/JIN STORY

Right there with you, brothas. There are some pretty good theories on Lostpedia about who the daddy might be, based on various "D.O.C.'s." It would be pretty dramatic if a "PARTHENOGENIC" daddy were revealed. It would lend credence to claims about a certain Lostie's biological background in "Deus Ex Machina" (S1E19, BEST EPISODE EVER). And what about Sun's own true heritage?
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Sun-Hwa_Kwon/Theories

d.o.c.
waxman

[utahdave]

The cadbury cream egg brand on Juliet was no coincidence. Juliet is exactly like a cadbury cream egg: Sweet and harmless on the outside, but pure evil on the inside.

[Mike in the Box]

Hey John, Robert, and Matt:

Can someone please post the D.O.C. thread? It will make my day :)

Thanks

[my-2-cents]

*********************************************************
S P O I L E R S !!!
"BELIEVE ME, BROTHA! I'VE TRIED TO SAVE YOU!
BUT NO MATTER WHAT I DO...YOU'RE GONNA BE SPOILED!"
*********************************************************

Hercules! Hecules! Give us details if you please!
http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/2007/04/doc-faq-and-5-stars-from-herc-at-aicn.htmL
(curiously, this info isn't on Herc's own site yet)

*********************************************************
END OF SPOILER FLASHES! "OH MY GOD! PENNY!!!"
*********************************************************

Doc Waxman

[Mike in the Box]

@ my-2-cents (aka Doc Waxman)

I think the link you posted is bad.

[JackedupLockedown]

I have two minor complaints with this upcoming episode

1. D.O.C reminds me of a guy named Richard Golden who was the face of an eyeglass company named DOC (Discount Optical Center...maybe?) and he used to dance around in his "sexy specs"...Hated that commercial and this episodes title has revived that happily repressed memory.

2. I feel another self contained plot weaving a loose end that won't be tied until the finale coming on. While these are usually well written and enjoyable episodes the later in the season they happen the more impatient I am and tend to be focused on the bigger storylines. At least we can count on some EMBRYO DEW information.

I did not read any spoilers leading up to this episode (to busy solving the show) so that should also make it more enjoyable thanks to DOC WAXMAN for customizing the spoiler alarm for me a few times this week to remind me to steer clear.

In closing...

Four People's who's name would be better if they were named Jack

John Quincy Adams, Sixth President - Would have been a better way to distinguish himself then the Quincy thing

Sanjaya, American Idol Reject - A hybrid Sanjacka

Matthew Fox - Party of Five's Charlie - Watching this has made me realize he is a Jack, and it takes one to know one. Plus Jack Fox, sounds like a private eye or a double agent

Dennis Hof, Owner of the Bunny Ranch - Just say it out loud once and consider his profession.

[my-2-cents]

@ Mike in the Box,

*******************
S P O L I E R S
*******************

Thanks for catching that! Replacement has arrived:
http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/2007/04/doc-faq-and-5-stars-from-herc-at-aicn.html
See what happens when you don't enter the code correctly?
I was attempting to use the machine for communication!

Some more lethal info just parachuted from
black unmarked helicopters onto "DarkUFO's" domain
http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/

*******************
END OF SPOLIERS
*******************

"Dark" Waxman

[Dennis N Chicago]

Is the Monk the same guy wearing the red shoes that Ms. Hawking knew was going to die? If Ms. Hawking saved his life, that might explain the photo.

[Radzinsky]

@ JackedupLockedown

I was in Toronto for a few days on business, but your theory (about halfway up the page) was the most cogent, precise and well thought out review of all things Lost to date. We collectively owe you debt of gratitude for basically solving everything. Well done. ;)

@ Mark B, Jackie, BrianS and anyone else talking about Libby

I LOVE THIS. This is the first new theory in a while that we all have developed without any real new information coming from the episodes -- just a fresh way to look at information that we already have. Brilliant.

I mean yes, considering Libby in light of Brother Campbell and Ms. Hawking is particularly interesting, and the way I see it now, we've got three possibilities for Libby's role in Lost:

(1) Libby is bonkers.
She's hot, but still just bat-shit crazy, she did something funky with her dead husband, gave away her horrendously expensive racing sailboat to Desmond, did a stint at Hurley's psych ward and then fell in love with the big guy.

(2) Libby is an Other?
This implies a much larger role for the Others or Dharma in the lives of the castaways (even before Flight 815), but let's just say there's a chance (especially considering tonight's ending, which I unfortunately know in advance) that Libby was an Other all along... keeping tabs on Hurley (or the guy spouting the numbers), watching Desmond, and even watching Michael -- to make sure that Ben's rescue went smoothly... and then, oops! Libby is shot.

(3) Libby is a Desmond Watcher / Time Guardian
I've been shot down on this Time Guardian theory before, but just assuming that there are people who CAN see the future (Ms. Hawking, Brother Campbell) and they ARE guiding Desmond's life to a certain extent, are we just to believe that Desmond had a chance encounter with someone who was going to give him a sailboat that would land him on an Island where he would be dispelling a magnetic anomaly every 2 hours for 3 years? Doubtful.

(Side note: will it be interesting when Desmond finds out that the woman who gave him the sailboat was on the Island as well?)

Having laid out these three options, I'm going with choice #1. I think it's the right choice, and I'll tell you why: If Libby could see the future a la Brother Campbell and Ms. Hawking, would she have walked into Michael's bullet? I'm not so sure (though I expect someone could refute this idea on the whole course-correction theory).

Looking forward to some LIVELY conversation tomorrow after tonight's final reveal...

~Radzinsky

[rok]

so we got lost an extra hour earlier than normal (7 p.m. EST) up here in canada. i don't know if they're getting better at preventing leaks, or i'm just worse at finding spoilers, but there were two reveals tonight... two BIG reveals... that really threw me. i felt like the flashback plot was okay, but felt recycled. can't wait until next week. the theories are really going to catch fire again after tonight's ep.

stay lost!

[Tahir]

Good episode.

Could Juliet be lying about Suns d.o.c. date ?

And THAT ending - WOW.

[Tahir]

Also - I'm glad Mikhail Bakunin is still alive.
He's a good character.

[Lorne]

Oh the irony.... their episode name was 1 week early! It was Sun that was in a catch-22 :)

Radzinsky coming back was awesome.
And just like last week, and the week before that, I swore @ my TV at the end.
Some classic Hurley bits.

And I'll say it first... OMG PURGOTORY!!!

[Lorne]

oooops sorry Radz... but I guess I've named Bakunin into Radzinsky... my brain confused the names lol

[Mark B]

SPOILERS AHEAD FOR TONIGHTS EPISODE:

Three mjor things .....

Baby is Jins so she's dead unless Jules is lying.
He's ALIVE -- or is he ? Twins ?
They are all DEAD ?!?! Or is she lying ?

[JackedupLockedown]

Top five things that pissed me off

5) This chick speaks english but trys ten other languages first despite the people around her and Desmond (The one shes looking for) speaking English.

4) Sun should have seen the "you wanna wait out here from 10 miles away"

3) They let Mikhail go (you're kidding right?)

2) How does Desmond know how many each side has killed

1) Purgatory, two-timelines or a faked plane crash...Any other possabilities...those three SUCK!!!

[BrianS]

i vote two planes, each with different plane crashes. Explains why no one's gone looking for them!

this also could mean that the pilots were in on it, as well as the crew!

HOWEVER, what if the plane was supposed to actually LAND on the island, not crash in such a destructuve way? Something (Desmond) was out of Ben's control at the time, and the plane crashed instead of landing safely...?

Maybe Des's purpose in life was not just to find the island, input the numbers and press the button, but to actually make that *one mistake* that caused the 815 crash and set the course of events for the last 90 days. His "guardians" are protecting the "rest of us" from whatever Ben/Dharma/Others/Widmore have "discovered" on the island.

OK, enough "air quotes" and computers for today. G'night.

[alex's slingshot]

@ Lorne

"And I'll say it first... OMG PURGOTORY!!"

the producers have already said the island is not purgatory. i think this reveal is more along the lines of time travelling/fate, destiny/multiple outcomes that we've seen represented in desmond flash-forwards.

just a though

[Mike in the Box]

Subject: Purgatory

TPTB have repeatedly mentioned in interviews and on the OLP that the show does not contain a "purgatory."

With that being ruled out, we must explore other explainable options.

The only ones that seem plausible so far are:

1) Two plane crashes, no one is looking

2) Time shift: in one reality, flight 815 did crash and all passengers perished. in another reality, flight 815 broke apart and survivors are on an f'ed up island.

I cannot come up with any other option. I am leaning towards option number two. This option could have seriously interesting repercussions.

[Lorne]

I know... I just wanted to say it so it could be shot down.

[tommy]

What if this new chick is an Other as well? It was kind of convenient that a trained field medic who happened to be an Other popped out of the woods at a very critical time to save the pilot's life. One day, maybe one and a half, for a collapsed lung to heal with no medical treatment? People with gun shot wounds have died on the island WITH medical treatment, so that seems kindof fishy.

Setting this scenario up would be a very good way to con Desmond into believing anything that she says. It seems like he will do anything to get back together with Penny, and maybe Ben needs him to do something for them.

Just a crazy theory.

[Matt Jones]

option 3. The crash was faked by Dharma/Others/Widmore/Hanso to as part of a cover-up.

[LT]

I think Lost is teaching quantum physics, i.e. option 2.

Here's a brief but understandable summary of the theory: "In quantum physics, objects can exist in multiple states and places at the same time, requiring a mastery of statistics to describe them. Rife with uncertainty and riddled with paradoxes, the theory [of quantum physics] has been criticised for casting doubt on the notion of an objective reality - a concept many physicists, including Albert Einstein, have found hard to swallow."

[argh]

It didnt seem like the lady said "thank you" to Mikhail in Italian. Thank you in Italian is "grazie". I dont remember her even saying that. Can anyone translate what she really said?

The episode was great. I especially liked how Jin kicked some Mikhail butt with his martial arts!

[Tahir]

@ argh

Yep - The Jin kick butt scene was excellent.I was cheering.

I think the writers/directors were being very clever the way they portrayed Jack as he spoke to Sun about her pregnancy - it seemed quite a dark scene to me.Is jack keeping something secret regarding the time he spent with 'the others' ?
Something just came into my mind - when Jack spoke to Juliet and said 'you're one of us now", did he mean one of our Losties or one of the supposedly 'others' break away group Juiliet conveyed to Jack some time back.
I guess we'll find out soon.

[idjk]

I think Sun's D.O.C. was accurate as given by Juliet, as the date (according to Lostpedia's timeline) lines up with (likely the night prior to) exodus.

[Mark B]

Apparently Naomi does say "I am dying" but what Mikhail says is "Thnakyou" translates to "I am not alone" (from Lostpedia)

Rether than happening upon them Mikhail followed the flare to Naomi and I think he knew what he was going to find there (except the four Lostaways). There seemed to be some conection between Naomi and Mikhail. I'm wondering if she is an Other.

I like Matt Jones idea that Someone is covering up the whle crash by placing some wrekage -- not sure where they'd get the bodies from.

Option 4) Naomi is lying about the outside world finding the plane.

I really hope it's not some time shift that would open up a million holes. How would they explain that Naomi moved from one 'time' to another ? Or is the island on a differnt timeline than the outside world and by arriving on the island you jump time lines ?

Also is the fact that the man Jin thinks is his father is not his father anything other than another Daddy issue ? Similar story to Kates.