LOSTCasts 55: The Brig

This latest podcast focuses on season 3, episode 19 of LOST, The Brig. In the podcast this week, we talk about Locke's time on the island with Ben and the others, the trust issues going on at the beach, and Locke's plan to pit Sawyer against Sawyer.

Download podcast #55 here

Links related to the podcast:
General reactions from Darkufo
J. Wood on "The Brig"
The Oath by John Lescroart
Screencap of Cooper tied to ruins
Screencap of Sawyer's dossier
Summary of Little Dorrit

LOST links:
Lostisagame.com
J. Wood vs. Washington Post

See you next week! Stay LOST.

Comments

[Sobaika]

As weird as it is, I kinda look forward to this podcast all weekend! Thanks guys :)

[sam]

nice, number 2!! And yes, Tasha is like Madona.

[sam]

oh, and heres my theory about the next episode:
So, during the Cold War, there was the metaphore of the "Iron Curtain" which seperated the communistic and capitalistic nations of Europe. Maybe the man behind the curtain is either no one, just a metaphore or that the man behind the curtain is Jacob, but Jacob is the leader from the other side of the curtain. This may be a little far fetched, but when I heared the name "Man Behind The Curtain," the idea of the "Iron Curtain" came to mind. Great podcast, and keep kickin ass!!

[Mark B]

Downloading the cast now so forgive mme if this is mentioned ... in the Wood/Post interview it says that the OLP talks about Capricorn One which I mentioned without hearing the OLP --- honest.

Do you think the plan is to have Micheal and Walt turn up on the mainland and 'out' the fake crash ?

[my-2-cents]

New Official UK Podcast for "The Brig" is out:

http://skyscape.sky.com/skynewsradio/PODCAST/lost19.mp3

The "Lost Initiative" is sponsored by the
SkyOne network that airs LOST across the pond.
These "brothas from another lover" are a really funny alternative.
Here's a previous description:

Get your podcast-on-crack fix!
No match for our Lostcasters, certainly less-informed, but "Geeky Tom" & his crew are hilarious!! Kind of a quirky, Ricky Gervais/Mike-Myers-British-spoof feel to this. Ridalin-fueled, quick-paced chatter; capped at 30 minutes.

Features great intro/outtro clips,
dramatic (superfluous) background music throughout.
Irreverent British-isms, listener call-ins,
& a unique approach to "rubbish" listener emails.
More limey lightning rounds archived here:

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/UK_podcast

Other UK "Lostcasts" listeners have said:

http://www.lostcasts.com/2007/04/lostcasts_54_do.html#comment-68205792

Doc Waxman

[SMKGrl]

Anyone....

at the end of the podcast, a "Lost Experience video" is referenced. Anyone no where to go to watch it?

[SMKGrl]

how about does anyone know where to get it.

[Cihan]

1] I love how Robert slams Locke in nearly every podcast. *applauds*

2] Have to stop thinking of a box now, given that Ben used a metaphor that ex-box-company-employee Locke would understand. We have to think...outta the box.

3] lol@Widmore diaphragm.

4] Although I trust Sayid...I think I'll go with Naomi this time. Plus she's easier on the eyes. (sorry Naveen)

5] Good thought by Tasha: Juliet and Jack's knowledge of signal-blockage sounds like the best explanation of what Juliet wanted to tell Kate, its actually relevant to the conversation they were all having, as opposed to the randomness of Juliet wanting to tell Kate about the island's pregnancy woes.

[jg]

Subject: to die

Cooper is one of the 5
Agree: Locke, Hurley,Desmond = Safe
Sayid is safe because he has so much of a tortured soul that this can't be resolved quickly. So the Grim Reaper won't visit him soon.

My death wish list:
A) Michael/Walt: we don't need them anymore. Closure = good
Claire: need I say more
Charlie: His character has performed its task...flush
B) Rose/Bernard: House cleaning
Jack: getting boring/movie career

Subject: Locke

They are building him up to be the patsy again. Therefore,I think they will show us that he definitely is NOT a patsy again.

I think that Locke will appear sinful by the murder of Cooper. Ben (Satan) will now show his subordinate the "Wonders". Ben won't realize that Locke is technically still clean.

Subject: Ben's power

If Ben buys that Locke killed Cooper, then Alpert is an insurgent. Ben's power is very rickety. It's like Hitler's generals trying ti kill him. Even the inner circle wants him dead or deposed. (+Juliet)

[my-2-cents]

TREATISE ON LOCKE'S RETRIBUTION

I agree with John Keehler.
Locke is NOT complicit in Cooper's "murder!"
The larger circumstances of Sawyer's victimization
demanded justice far above Locke's own stake in this.
Therefore Locke has no CRIMINAL blood on his hands.
Texas politics does NOT enter into this at all!
Bear with me:

However he arrived on the island, Cooper "had it coming" as Locke put it, following the priniple of Naturalistic Justice (see J. Wood's breakdown). Cooper's death was therefore not revenge on Locke's part - which might have become true if Locke had garrotted his father at the pillar. Under the circumstances, this was clean courtroom retribution. On an island with no broadly recognized civil authorities, Locke was following the law of the island & simply made a citizen's arrest. Locke brought a fugitive from justice before the "judge, jury & executioner" manifested in Sawyer. Sawyer was given complete control. If he had refused to kill Cooper, Locke would have been snot-outta-luck. Locke completely surrendered his right of retribution into Sawyer's hands with no guarantees - "I'm NOT gonna kill him!" As any good prosecutor would do, Locke next made the case that jurist Sawyer would change his mind on hearing what Cooper had to say.

As an example, If I catch the thief who stole my car, but I learn that this thief also murdered my neighbor's family, I'm gonna give my neighbor a crack at more meaningful retribution first. Even if I'm on the record as saying "I want you (or somebody) to kill him," the larger circumstances may ensure that outcome for me anyway, WITHOUT criminal bloodguilt attaching itself in MY case.

Most significantly, Locke's retribution trek further showcases where he is constantly standing on higher moral ground when paralleled with Ben. Where Ben's purely self-serving & murderous manipulations DO place blood on his hands, Locke has managed to preserve the inviolate virtue vested in him by the island. From here on out, a grand moral chasm is being spotlighted between these 2, like Locke's flashlight meeting Sawyer's dark gun at the beach.

Where does John-Hercules-Locke go from here?
His saga will continue to propel the best storylines in LOST.

Doc Waxman

[JackedupLockedown]

Ben Linus: Who's conning who?

Two possibilities timeline explanation #1 & #2
YOU DECIDE WHICH MAKES SENSE

#1
Juliet shows Jack the video tape because Ben told her to

#2
Juliet really wants Jack to kill Ben

#1
Jack rats on Jules, Ben knew he would sets up the branding of Jules as a cover-up

#2
Ben finds out about Juliet’s deception and orders Jules branded. He lets Jack think she will be killed to draw them closer together setting up his Beach con

#1
Ben plays the tape as Locke approaches knowing he is coming wanting him to hear it because he knows Locke will tell the Losties.

#2
Ben has just received the tape and is listening for the first time as Locke approaches. Ben is open with Locke because he feels he controls Locke now anyway

#1
Richard following Ben's instruction goes up onto the hill and makes Locke believe Ben tried to embarrass him. And gives Locke the Sawyer file because the others need eant Cooper dead and can't do it themselves.

#2
Richard side steps Ben's command and tells Locke how to get Cooper killed because he needs Ben to show Locke the secrets of the Island for Locke to find his purpose.

#1
Ben let Locke steal the recorder knowing he'd give it to Sawyer after Sawyer kills Cooper. Sawyer will then expose Juliet to the Losties.

#2
Locke got the recorder from Ben when Ben was distracted or from the Other assigned to place it back in the staff hatch.

So I hope you guys see the point which I am trying to make...#1 does not add up...why would Ben want to have Juliet killed if Fertility is his #1 goal and he knew about the Video she showed Jack. We know Jules hates Ben so I doubt she'd have gone along with the branding thing by choice.

I can't bear it anymore I gotta vent about the Lostcast crew...

I can't believe Robert on this weeks cast. How can you think Ben has control of this all? If he has planned each move in advance he is the single luckiest human being in the history of the world.

Really though, as I finally can admit, he is a schmuck.
Sayid and Rousseau saw right through him.
Every plan he has had has gone wrong in some way and cost some of his people their lives.
Juliet hates him, Alpert appears to be side stepping his command.
His own "daughter" constantly under minds him and his agenda
Mikhail laughed at Locke when he thought Ben was the great man, the Russian refered to.
And on and on and on etc

Your assuming a guy who spent his entire life on an Island with appx: 50-100 or so other people, has the social skills to manipulate dozens of groups of strangers at a time with slipping up. I don't get it...first Keehler thinks Mikhail is the smoke monster now this. And that stuff about Locke being guilty in the eyes of the law. I don't want to live in the country where that is true. You have to ask someone to kill someone else to be charged with conspiracy. Holding the door to let the robber in the bank does not make you an accessory. Enough negativity; still pound for pound the best Podcast going outside of the OLP.

[JackedupLockedown]

American Idol viewers?

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20070506/2007_05_06t132043_450x316_us_mexico_tunick.jpg?x=380&y=266&sig=uF1tEzKt2a9yUA.3IiNetg--

-Jackie

[Justin]

I think locke is morally responsible for Cooper's death, but clearly not legally. All he did was lock James and Cooper in a room, it was James's decision to commit the murder.

[Mark B]

subject: Locke to blame for Coopers death ....?

I'd say Locke conspired to kill Cooper. I don't know enough about the law to say if it would stand up in a Texan or any other court but to my mind Locke is partially to blame for Coopers death. He moved Sawyer into a position where it was prety clear what would happen. If Locke had told Sawyer that Coooper was on the island and Sawyer had found him and killed him then that's probably not Lockes fault. BUT Locke lead Sawyer to Coopper and locked both of them in a room together. Locke knew Sawyer killed the man he thought was the real Sawyer so what did he think Saywer would do if he found out ? I'm sure if things had turned out such that Cooper did not admit to being the real Sawyer then Locke would have told Sawyer. Locke couldn't kill his Dad so got Sawyer to do it for him. Locke may not have Coopers blood directly on his hands but he has some blood splatter.

[Cameron]

Great podcast!

I always love to hear Robert on Locke's case! But I have to ask - what happens if at that the very end, Locke turns out to be the hero who saves the day?

@SMKGrl : the DHARMA video that John referenced is on YouTube at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PPCCcXarkc

[Sobaika]

I think Locke is to blame for Cooper's death - sort of like Iago in Othello: He is the sole conspirator behind the tragic events but never takes any direct action against Othello. He intended for Cooper to die and knowingly allowed it to happen. To me, that means he is guilty.

[Kevin]

Great podcast guys! I just wanted to reiterate the fact that I believe you failed to mention that Naomi's last name, Dorrit, I believe, relates to the a Dickens work. The thing that you didn't mention, forgive me if you did, was that Desmond has read every single book of Dicken's except for Our Mutual Friend. However, I think that this reference may either consiously or subconsiously make Desmond feel more comfortable with her and makes him trust her through familiarity (a technique commonly used in innovative types of psychology). Furthermore, I believe this adds to the possibility that the Others have actually put her there as a plant of some kind for some reason or another because we all know how the others and ben love to manipulate and trick the Losties.

[my-2-cents]

NO SPOILER LINKS HERE, I SWEAR!!!

WHY WCHS-TV?

If you enjoy spoilers like I do, then you've no doubt come across occasional early episode descriptions for LOST citing - of all places - Charleston, West Virginia ABC affiliate WCHS-TV as their source.
( http://www.wchstv.com )

So...How in JACOB's name do these folks get the information first ?!?!?

Some might logically say it's part of an effort by big daddy ABC to boost the station's profile, and in turn improve ABC's prospects in that market. I offer a darker conspiracy using a few clues from LOST, and this Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston%2C_West_Virginia

Exhibit A
Let's face it...on the surface, the biggest thing happening in this town is the "Kanawha Kordsmen Barbershop Chorus" performing tonight at the "Clay Center for the Arts," & the town's motto is Latin for "Hey, we just got cable!"

EXHIBIT B
"Alias star Jennifer Garner...moved with her family to Charleston as a young child and grew up there, graduating from the city's George Washington High School."

EXHIBIT C
There's a "Magic Island" park in the Kanawha River in the heart of Charleston.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Island_%28West_Virginia%29

EXHIBIT D
Cisco Systems CEO John Chambers, former DHARMA recruit, hails from Charleston.

EXHIBIT E
The tallest building in Charleston, is the "Kanawha Valley Building" at 238 feet. The Four-Toed Statue in LOST once stood roughly 240 feet tall.
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Four-Toed_Statue

This is OBVIOUS foreshadowing for the off-island series ender, in which J.J. Abrams taps Jennifer Garner to parachute onto the K.V. Bldg & retrieve a failsafe key from Ms. Hawking which must be activated on Magic Island before the "Rattlesnake Handler's Church Hatch" implodes, taking LOST Island & the entire Earth with it. Ben Affleck reprises BEN's role as the maniacal genius spurned by Jennifer. Ben sends John Chambers to destroy Jen's GPS locator & the "microcomputer processor" with a massive EMP like the one used to sabotage his original DHARMA-Tel network. Consequently, the K.V. Bldg explodes into a gigantic pile of quantum red shoes that land on all the tired actors who've already foreseen their own deaths in flashes. Jennifer hang glides away with seconds to spare, but cannot pull the key out of her cleavage. Instead, she miraculously solves the Valenzetti Equation thanks to her crib notes on Rambaldi (played by senator Robert Byrd in flashbacks) & enters the values into a secret computer on Magic Island protected by EMP Blast Doors to override all ill effects. The sky turns pink - her favorite color - and she runs away with Hurley to open a successful chain of chicken resturants. Henceforth, Ben goes after Jack Bauer, never to be seen again - or seen using the tiolet.

Razzle Dazzle, Ya'll !!!

Doc Waxman

[my-2-cents]

P.A.G.
(PAINFUL ACRONYM GAME)

Uh, anyone else ever confused by all the episode ACRONYMS thrown around the Comments section? "Whatever the Case May Be," it often takes all my strength not to cheat & check Lostpedia to figure out what "WTCMB" stands for. While waiting for the podcast a few hours ago, I thougt this might actually make a funny game. Next time I'm waiting by the screen, this may replace that Sunday morning crossword I never finish. Here's a sample using a lot of T's. Try it:

"CAN YOU NAME THAT LOST EPISODE?"

TGG? TTLG? TMFT? TCOL? THP? TLC?
TWT? TFTR? ATOTC? TTID? TMBTC?

(No, THC is the nutrient you crave after 5 minutes on the task)

answers here:
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Portal:Episode_Guide

Doc Waxman :)

[Jack+Sayid=DurtyIslandLuv]

Hey everyone, loved the podcast this week!

Y'all were metioning an immenent deal between ABC and the producers about setting an end date for LOST.

Well, HERE IT IS:
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117964371.html?categoryid=14&cs=1

THREE MORE SEASONS of SIXTEEN EPISODES!

Essentally four seasons worth of material, spread out over five years to allow ABC to wring a little more money out of it.

The easier production schedule should allow actors to pursue side projects...every season will run stright through...last episode to air in Spring 2010- ONE WHOLE YEAR into the Obama Presidency.

Its a whole new world for LOST fans, great artilce check it out!

[Jack+Sayid=DurtyIslandLuv]

Sorry that's five seasons of material, spread out over six seasons.

And I like the new system btw, seems like they struck a perfect deal that satisfies everyone.

The season will basically be the same length as the one we have now- minus the first six. That "mini-season" sucked anyway.

It'd be a little bummer on DVD (cuz ya know they'll charge full price for the 3/4 length season), but the limit it will keep the content meaningful (no Nikki and Palo/Charlie flashback BS) and allow a straight-through airing.

The perfect deal.

[my-2-cents]

***************************
GAME-CHANGING SPOILERS
***************************

"JACOB's WRATH?"..."MAGIC" MOVIE TIE-IN?

OK, first of all, who says spoilers are drying up in May?!? Here's the mother-of-all spoiler sources (text-only). It's feverishly updated & very comprehensive!
DarkUFO, the Virgin Media prophet himself, could stand to be this exhaustive & simplified:

http://forums.buddytv.com/lost-spoilers/5294-new-season-3-spoilers.html

So now you've seen the teaser/foiler about JACOB's identity. This immediately brings to mind "Magic" the 1978
head-game movie with Anthony Hopkins & Ann-Margaret. Not a cult classic, but not "Chucky meets Hannibal" either. There are enough LOST-related plot devices here to yell "Partial inspiration for Episode 20!"
There's the influential "Fats" DOLL, of course, a scene with a pivotal character transformation behind a CURTAIN, & a brilliant but tragic "spineless" PSYCHOPATH who must win at all costs.

Too bad Burgess Meredith didn't live to see a cameo on LOST, and so far nobody alive on the island brings Ann-Margaret's kind of D-cup value to the beach. It would REALLY rock if Michael Giacchino could work in some of
"Magic's" musical Felini enchantment into these next few episodes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_%28movie%29

Here's a YouTube trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7JJK8W-UQs

"Who's gonna die first?" now takes on a whole new meaning.

********************
END OF SPOILERS
********************

Doc Waxman

[my-2-cents]

@ Jack+Sayid=DurtyIslandLuv,

2010 END DATE SUCKS!!!
Cuse & Lindelof are gonna have Cooper-hell to pay if they don't get a major OLP out to fans ASAP to explain themselves directly. Shorter seasons = fans drop out, and then tune-in again way too late to rekindle the show's original excitement! Happened with "MONK." 10-episode seasons. Yikes! I'll get over it.

Doc Waxman

[Mike in the Box]

The end date will help the story arcs to be tighter and provide us with exciting episodes as opposed to the occasional filler.

However, the shorter season does stink a bit. That is one of the drawbacks to cable series'. I love the show Dexter, but 12 episodes a season is difficult.

Hopefully Damarlton knows what they are doing.

[my-2-cents]

USA Today's 2 Cents on LOST roadmap:

http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2007-05-06-lost_N.htm

Doc Waxman

[frankmorris]

Crazy Theory...Kate is the real mole.

Here are my thoughts:

1) She returns to the cages after her breakfast w/ Ben very worried & distraught. Ben has somehow bent her to his will.

2) Jack has had contact w/ Juliet, a subversive other, & is now distant & mistrusting of Kate.

3) Locke has had contact w/ Mikhail, a subversive other, & is now judgmental of Kate.

4) Mikhail, trusting only Locke, devises a plan to commandeer the sub using the c-4.

5) Juliet, in her excitement to reach the ship off shore, almost tells Kate about the sub before Jack stops her.

[Mark B]

Hold the horses ..... if Locke is so special then how come he wasn't on Jacobs list. Mikhail said he was flawed or something in the trek to the barracks or is Mikhail just lying like everyone else.

[Cihan]

I like to rail on Locke alot, but in his defence, if he hadnt have smashed the button then Penny would have never discovered the island, so he has in effect saved them (well, if it all leads to them being saved anyway)

[Mike in the Box]

Subject: Locke being "flawed" and hence not on Jacob's list

Perhaps the reason Locke was considered flawed had to do with his physical handicap. But in light of his miraculous healing he has been elevated to "special" status.

[jg]

Subject: Jakobs list

I thnk we need to be careful about the list stuff. I think Jack, Kate, Sawyer, & Hurley were on Ben's list, for his purposes, which are subordinate to Jakob's. I don't think Kate was on Jakob's list either since when the Others left they didn't take her. Locke said something to the effect that "They don't want you...They aren't big on forgiveness."
So, I think we have yet to see Jakobs list.

I think Ben's "genius" is that he constantly sprinkles half truths and lies in his dealings with everybody, cuz they probably do him no harm and they may come in handy in the future.

[nerd from new jersey]

******************************
I love your show- I am a long time listener first time poster.
So my theory is that the lost folks are clones. Desmond is not seeing the future but rather is seeing residiual memory- how charlie has died the other times the group was cloned on the island.

Maybe clones can't reproduce.
Maybe thats why the parachutist phone was so advanced- Sayid wasn't around when that technology was used.
Maybe they all did die on that plane, and DHARMA just keeps bringing them back.

I am also happy you have added some gals to your show. I hope they return.
******************************

[Mark B]

subject : Juliet and Jacks secret

I'm sure this will have been mentioned before but isn't the secret that Jack and Juliet share that the Others are coming in a few days to kidnap the women ?

We know that Ben and Jules have a plan for her to find pregnant women and we know that Ben and his merry band are going to take them in a few days. I assume Jules knows the plan so has told Jack.

The question is Ben told Locke about the plan so does Ben know that the Losties know suspecting Locke will tell them. Furthermore does Ben suspect that Jules has told at least Jack so the Losties knew the plan anyway. Is Jules working for Ben so it's all a front anyway ? Has Ben let Locke hear the tape so he tells the Losties so they uncover Jules as a mole but then Jack steps up and says "Oh no we had a plan". But then the Losties don't trust Jack anyway so it all goes bad for Ben ..... oh man my head hurts now.

[Amanda]

End date for LOST chosen: 3 more seasons of 16 episodes apiece.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/TV/05/07/television.lost.reut/index.html?eref=ew

[my-2-cents]

@ Sobaika, etc

IAGO fits Ben more closely. "Supreme intellect unregulated by emotion or conscience."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iago
Discovereing a new purpose on the island had already helped Locke made peace with his daddy issues by the time Ben tried to tear those wounds open again. Locke never assaulted Cooper when he had the chance. Technically, Ben is the one who set Cooper's death in motion by summoning him to the island. Locke exhibited supreme self-control & rejected Ben's ploy as an act of obeisance. Given the situation, he simply "called the cops" to carry out their duty & clean up the mess. Locke lives by conscience as the essence of his namesake. And, yes, there is new sherrif in town.

Doc Waxman

[JackedupLockedown]

Clal me czray but hvnaig lsot run aotehnr trehe srhot snseaos is lkie seplinlg all the wrdos in a sntecne wonrg. Srue our bniras can hnlade it but why bhoetr. Two mroe yares of tentwy or so eseidps wluod hvae bnen pently.

Jkaice

[Radzinsky]

Happy Monday, everyone. Three days to the backstory of one Benjamin Linus.

First off, I think it's good news that we have a horizon in sight for Lost -- tighter stories, a complete arc -- perhaps one season longer than the writers wanted to go, meaning we'll get more Nikki & Paulo episodes, but still good news nonetheless.

Now... theory time. Last week, I wrote that the whole Jacob mythology reminded me of Jesus in a way, and that's a theme I'd like to revisit today (actually, I think the idea was subconsciously planted in my head by the girlfriend, who I didn't give proper credit last week, and she got mad at me). She and I were walking through a Manhattan street fair this week, and of course we started to chat about Lost, and a whole new theory popped up, which I think could generate significant discussion today. I'll try and lay it out in several parts, since it's a long, broad theory that touches on a lot of Lost elements. Here goes:

*** JACOB RETURNS... AS JOHN LOCKE ***

(1) The messianic religious tradition

Of course we know that most major religions have a messianic figure in them, and that such a messianic figure will return in a time of need, or to lead his followers to some form of the Promised Land. Jesus leading Christians to the Rapture would be the main example of this, but there are similar traditions in Judaism (my religion) and I believe Islam as well.

(2) "Jacob" fits the messianic tradition

From all we've heard of Jacob, he could very well be a religious figure in the Others PAST, as opposed to their present. Consider the scene from Room 23 where Carl was imprisoned: "God loves you as he LOVED Jacob." That's the past tense. God also LOVED Jesus.

We know that the Others are very old. We know that they predate the Dharma Initiative, and now, given the presence of all the ruins on the Island, the Others may be very, very old. Could they have been started by a legendary man, the first man to found the Island, a religious figure from their past that died long ago, but lives on as a spiritual figure? Could this be what they mean by Jacob? And, could Jacob be prophesied to return at a given time, could the Others be waiting, as so many religions do, for the return of a savior?

(3) The Others regarded Locke as a savior

Now, think about the reactions that you saw on the faces of the Others when Locke was presented to them and directed by Ben to sacrifice his father, Anthony Cooper, in last week's episode. All of the Others came out to look at Locke with wonderment, staring at him as though they were looking at one VERY important man. Is Locke their Jesus-figure?

(4) Locke's backstory establishes him as a religious figure

Locke as a savior, or a religious figure, isn't that hard to put together considering his time on the Island. He originally experiences the "miracle" of being able to walk again. We know he's a "man of faith." He is a healer -- curing Boone of his "incestuous" affection for his sister, curing Charlie of his drug-addiction, finding Walt's dog. Locke acquires disciples in a way, with Charlie (early on) and Boone -- whereas Jesus had apostles. Locke is a woodworker, making Claire a cradle and carving a whistle out of wood -- Jesus was a carpenter.

And last but not least, we have the rantings of Locke's crazy drunk mother, who says that Locke was "immaculately conceived." We originally chalked that up to Locke's mother being bonkers, but we also know the show's writers don't put details like that in there unless they mean something... so should we give it more serious consideration?

(5) Ben fits the pattern of Locke-as-Jacob

The things that we know about Ben fit this pattern as well. I'll start with the most recent and work backwards. Next week's episodes is called the "Man Behind the Curtain." Ben posed for a time as Henry Gale. Who is Henry Gale? Dorothy's father from the Wizard of Oz. How did Henry Gale get to the Island? In a balloon. Who do we know that left Oz in a balloon? The "man behind the curtain." The lone figure behind the "great and powerful Oz."

Does this mean that Ben is the man pulling all the levers and switches, pretending that there is really a Jacob, maintaining everyone's belief in a man/deity who doesn't really exist? Quite possibly.

But it can also mean that Ben is sort of the High Priest of Jacob, the anointed Other who leads by divine right -- his word is the word of Jacob.

Now, Ben's legitimacy as the "voice of Jacob" is questioned by his failure to solve the Others' fertility problem. Ben brings out Juliet, probably saying that it's Jacob's will, but as she loses pregnancy after pregnancy, some of the Others start to doubt Ben's religious leadership -- they doubt his interpretation of Jacob's word.

Then Locke arrives on the Island. A paralyzed man who can suddenly walk. And the Others see the foretold return of their savior, they think that Jacob walks among them again.

Ben clearly doesn't want this to happen, it threatens everything he has established with the Others. He wants to be in charge, he needs to be the voice of Jacob and he has to continue as the "man behind the curtain." If the REAL Jacob has arrived on the Island in the form of John Locke, Ben is lost. So what does he do? He kidnaps Anthony Cooper and convinces the Others that Locke has to sacrifice his father to truly be recognized as their savior -- and he does all this KNOWING that Locke is not a killer.

How? First off, he knows from the time he spent with Locke while pretending to be Henry Gale. Secondly, he knows from Locke's file (probably acquired by Bakunin), that Locke couldn't kill the undercover cop who exposed the marijuana greenhouse. He knew that Locke wasn't a "hunter" after all.

So Ben sets Locke up to fail. He puts him on that altar before all the Others, and shows them that Locke can't kill his father. Unfortunately, this isn't enough for the group of Others that still wants to believe that Locke could be their savior, could be their Jacob, and Richard Alpert suggests that he have Sawyer do the job.

(6) What about the Jacob references so far?

All we really know is that Jacob is referred to as "a great man," that he has a list, and that apparently Juliet believes in Jacob after only a short time on the Island. But people believe in God, or Jesus, in just the same way -- especially if they are persuaded by a personality as forceful as Ben's. Ben could have set Jacob up as the "great man," Ben could have drafted Jacob's "list," and Ben may have convinced Juliet of Jacob's power, probably just by sleight of hand (i.e. claiming that Jacob cured her sister of cancer, when it happened naturally).

************************************************

That's the theory for now, I hope it wasn't too disjointed or too long. All in all, I think it's likely incorrect, but I think there are elements in there that I might have right.

I'd really like to see what you all think of this today. I'm sure there are holes in it -- maybe I can explain them, maybe not. So Jackie, Doc Waxman, Cihan, jg, alex's slingshot, Mark B and any of the regulars -- have at it.

~Radzinsky

[Cihan]

Three seasons left. 16 episodes long each. And no repeats.

Best thing that could have ever happened to this show, I'm so excited! I kept lamenting about the length of each season and how I wished they'd shorten it like a HBO season, and now my wish has come true. No more 'fillers' for people to complain about, just pure LOST. Please understand how hard it is to write over 20 hour-long episodes; they have to stretch things and as a result the story suffers. The shorter the episode/season length the higher in quality of the story. This wasnt an ABC decision (you know they want the show to go on for years), this was a writers decision, this kind of announcement from ABC is actually surprising, I'm sure TV companies rarely ever do this kind of thing.

===

Random Locke Ponderings: I think he is a schmuck that NOBODY takes seriously, not Ben or Jacob. He is a wildcard. It doesnt matter to Ben that Locke can walk again, this isnt a special ability, and this is not news to Ben. The island healed Mikhail from certain death recently afterall, the others, as Mikhail mentioned, are aware the island is still 'working'. Whatever Ben has in store for Locke, it cant be good at all.

What Locke has going for him is increasingly unpredictable behaviour that no amount of mainland files will be able to predict. Remember, character growth is the only weapon against the others who are masters of psychological warfare and have everyone's background info at hand. (although it would appear Locke has outfoxed Ben, it was with Alpert's help, so it doesnt look like Locke has grown much at all yet)

Another thing Locke has in his favour, I think, is that another entity on the island, namely Smokey, does consider Locke important. We've yet to understand their relationship though.

[JackedupLockedown]

@ Cihan

The Island cured Mikhail because he was wound was not fatal as the fence was not turned up all the way (OLP)

@Radzberg

I agree that that thoery is likely incorrect, especially since I think Jacob is a real person, but it is still very well thought out and presented and there is certainly some sort of validity to the paralels you draw. I just don't think we have enough pieces to correctly connect the dots just yet.

Ironic maybe not but funny nonetheless, Boomtown Rats just start playing on the radio here as I was lamenting the start of another week.

-Jackie

[Cihan]

@ Radzinsky. I like your Messianic Locke theory, a good catch with his mom's "immaculately conceived" comment, it does seem like a sneaky foreshadowing of his role on the island. The Wizard of Oz references do lead us to predict that Ben is in control of everything, possibly using 'Jacob' to control everyone, but we know Lost likes to throw red herrings in our faces.

Jacob as someone from the Other's past is an interesting thought, maybe he has discovered immortality and has lived on the island for centuries? (maybe Hanso wanted to use Jacob like a test subject, etc) Maybe its like Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, if you get off the island you're not immortal anymore?

[Radzinsky]

@ Jackie

If Jacob is a real person, why all the emphasis on the "Man Behind the Curtain" stuff with Ben? On the one hand, I think finally meeting Jacob in person would be a massive reveal for the audience and a great casting opportunity for the show. On the Other (pun) hand, there's a lot to indicate that Ben is an empty shell, and he's leading the Others through sheer force of will.

I also think we need to ask ourselves -- if Jacob is such a "great man" and he is an actual person on the Island, why is he so deep in the shadows? Why let Ben run everything? Has nothing that's happened on the Island so far merited his action?

@ Cihan

I really do think that Locke has had a messianic role on the Island so far, and the parallels between his actions and the New Testament - at least the stuff I know - immaculate conception, disciples, healing, carpentry, etc. - seem strong. If anyone knows more about Jesus' life and can draw connections to Locke's backstory or his time on the Island, please feel free.

[Challabuck]

Interesting bit from the Washington Post chat link, via J Wood:

"J. Wood: Alpert's playing head games with Locke. The Richard Alpert from our world was the psychologist who dropped acid with Timothy Leary, changed his name to Ram Das, and became a guru. He was very interested in what motivates people to attain spiritual wholeness."

I'm thinking of all people, Alpert might well be Jacob. I can't shake the feekling that we've already seen Jacob. On that note, maybe it's JACOB Wood?

[Mark B]

If the CNN article is true then 3 seasons of 16 episodes STINKS big time.

That means it won't be over until 2010. Too long. ABC have blown it. The final (6th) season won't happen too many people will lose interest in the huge hiatus. 36 weeks off will kill the show, roughly 28 weeks will be bad enough from end S3 to start S4 (end May to mid-Jan) but 36 weeks from S4 (which will end early-May)to start S5 (mid Jan) will put many people off another 36 weeks break after S5 before S6 will be the end. This of course assumes that all seasons will start mid-Jan and run straight through with no breaks.

From the CNN article it says that Cuse/Lindeloff wanted about 100 but ABC wanted 120. So are we in for about 20 episodes of padding ?

[jg]

@ Cihan,
au contrare mon ami,
I think (as Radz...) that there are messianitic overtones to Lockes story. I think they are rubbing our noses in his flaws so when the Hero (or anti-Hero) emerges, it will be even more poignant.

@ Radz...,
I was rather thinking that there may be a Dalai Lama spin to this. I think that there is a new Dalai Lama every so often. I think "Mike in the box" could weigh in on the Jesus slant, (better than I). Maybe Locke is the new Jacob (read Dalai Lama).

[jg]

@ Mark B,
I with you brotha...2010...NO!
Given the breakdown of short seasons with prolonged hiati...I WILL wander off...as much as I love it right now.

[Cihan]

Honestly, this season the break between episodes was jarring, and if the price we have to pay for no breaks is a longer wait I'm totally fine with that. I really dont mind waiting however long it takes for a new season as long as the story doesnt suffer, and shorter seasons automatically is a benefit to the story, and now we've got an end date, they can plot the rest of the series out. I'm pretty sure this sentiment is shared by many. Lost is still the most popular show around, its always making headlines in one way or another, I doubt it will suddenly lose millions of viewers because of a longer break between seasons.

Plus another reason for the way they've done it is probably for the many actors involved, it gives them more chance to work on their own projects I guess.

Lets hope they talk about it on the official podcast.

[Mark B]

@Radz

About your theory. I posted a similar idea last week about Locke being the long awaited messiah of the Others, I'm sure I wasn't the first. It was not so well rounded as yours and relied heavily on the single fact that Others were all in awe of Locke during the tent pitching scene with Cindy. They all looked like people who had seen someone famous but were afraid to talk to them. I postulated that somewhere the Others have some 'holy book' that predicts the coming of the saviour and it maybe that the prediction mentioned someone who was unable to walk but then walked amongst them -- I'm sure the prediction was written in such a way that it could be read in many ways hence Ben saying "He's not who we thought he was". I still have no idea why Locke should kill his father to become one of them -- an initiation test I assume. But one Locke failed as he was then cast out so clearly he was meant to kill Cooper. Not the kind of test "good guys" would pass but then this is a cultist religion we are talking about and as I think Ben said to Jack it's all about perspective.

Maybe Jacob is the author of the holy book and Jacob died and it is the contents of the book that people are so transfixed by. Maybe Adam and Eve are Jacob and Mrs Jacob. Maybe Jacob was a future seer and wrote it all down and thus predicted the arrival of a plane from the sky, and the arrival of Locke and other stuff. Maybe the Others worship Jacobs remains in this "very old place" they are travelling too (this would mean Adam was not Jacob of course by now I'm brain dumping). Maybe the very old place is where Jacob lived or wrote the book. Maybe Jacob is insane and he's dead or the Others have him locked in a roomand he just babbles continually and some of his babbling is future seeing and people have been writing everything down that he says and some of it comes true. I read a book once with that in -- can't remember the details though.

On the bizarre end of the spectrum (like the above is not bizarre enough) I wonder if Jacob is in fact dead and the spirit of Jacob is all that remains (Smokey ??). Maybe the Others know where Smokey lives -- in the 'magic box' -- but can't control him but have a way to view/interact with him. Smokey judges people. From Lockes description of Smokey being a white light (as opposed to Ekos blackness) maybe Smokey has identified Locke as the messiah and the Others are merely following what Smokey says. This would make you wonder about why Smokey flashed at Juliet though as Smokey should already know about Juliet as she is an Other. Unless she's never met Smokey before.

@Everyone talking about the 3x16 seasons
I just don't get why they didn't do 2 more seasons of 24 episodes. Same number of episodes, don't see how a shorter season will benefit the story -- the major story arc is already 'written' surely. In fact it'll hurt the show as they'll have to come up with two cliffhangers now not just one. I don't think millions will turn off over night but it'll take a hit due to the hiatus when people don't tune back in. If S5 does not kick butt then S6 won't get made. Also I'm concerned thet TPTB wanted 100 epis and we're getting 120 ish .... padding ??

They will talk about it in the OLP and they'll say it's just what they wanted. What else will they say.

[jg]

One...oh...eight
(pause)
One...oh...eight
(pause)
One...oh...eight
(pause)
One...oh...eight
(pause)
One...oh...eight
(pause)
.
.
.
.
etc.

[Tahir]

@ Mark B

I agree with you partly, i.e. the long breaks will stink,
but the hardcore fans, like me, WILL stick with the show to the end.

I'm not even sure that the next 3 seasons will be the end - if the viewing figures go back upto 15/16 million mark during season 6 then I can see a season 7.If not that then a spin-off series.

[jg]

A spinoff series?
A spinoff series?
.
.
.
@ Jackie,
Hvae yuo herad fo ayn sipnfof sreies?

[JackedupLockedown]

RE: THREE MORE SEASONS OF LOST

I imagine Abrams\Cuse\Lindelof said they wanted to do two more full seasons and ABC wanted four so they meet in the middle with three shortened seasons. I'm sure Damon and Carlton will explain the thinking in the upcoming OLP. I don't like the shorter seasons (16 episodes) but I survive on only 14 Sout Park's a year so this should be okay.

I don't care really, as someone mentioned earlier I believe jg, the important thing is quality not quanity or how quickly I see them. With a firm end date in place the writers are free to confidently reveal mysteries without having to worry about saving some for the end. I am sure the extended length will mean 2 or 3 expose type episodes a season, which I am fine with. At this point I am so invested in the story that just about anything well written I will love.

As far as extending it beyond that I really, really, really dobut it. At least not with Abrams, Lindelof and Cuse on board. And for me if they go, so do I.

Season 7 = Zombie season

Forget about jumping the shark they'd have jumped the whole shiver.

[JackedupLockedown]

@ jg

108 would be great

RE: Spin offs

I thought about adding...

Womb Raiders (Discovery Health\MTV reality show scheduled to start shooting in 9 months)
Three unsuspecting pregnant women are abducted in their sleep and dragged through the jungle to the set of a "the dating game" style show where are drugged and examined by a lucky contestant who will then decide which Baby he like to steal. Hilarity ensues...Hosted by the "workman"-like Roger Lodge.

...but I didn't.

(This is the part where I'd make the punctuation smiley face if I knew how)

Jackie

[Cihan]

A 24 episode season can, and does, suffer from padding, but a 13 episode season wont. Doesnt matter if there's 3 seasons of 16 episodes, because each season has a beginning, middle and end. Its harder to write the middle section of a long season, like 24 episodes long, which is how padding appears in the first place.

So I hope we can expect the mythology to be ramped up to never before seen levels after this season. (I'll be surprised if it doesnt and we continue to get episodes like Hurley's van adventure, heh)

[Tahir]

@ JackedupLockedown

Its all about viewing figures - If its high enough and Lindelof and Cuse leave they'll just get someone else in.
It would be unfortunate but thats the way tv works.

As for spin offs - I was thing more about The Black Rock and that period of time - there's a story and a half there I bet.

[Radzinsky]

@ Mark B

I do indeed remember you posting something about Locke as the Others' messiah, and I'm sure it was in my head when I was connecting it to religion and Jesus-mythology yesterday.

Additionally, you raise a very interesting point with Smokey, and it is the one thing I left out of my very long-winded explanation above...

Smokey's approach to Locke has been very different than his approach to anyone else. He in fact tried to drag him into one of his "vents" (if you don't know what I'm talking about from the blast door map and the jigsaw puzzles, check it out), and bring him down underneath the Island to whereever it is that he is stored or housed or lives.

Is Jacob living down underground, immortal, and controlling Smokey? Wild speculation, who knows...

At the very least, Smokey's interest in Locke is further evidence of Locke's unique place on the Island, if not support for the notion that he is supposed to be the Others' savior.

[Sobaika]

RE: Three more seasons

To me this is the perfect solution. More suspense, tighter storylines, production gets more time to shoot the episodes, no breaks/repeats. According to Kristin @ eonline it was done this way rather that just two seasons of 24 so that spoilers didn't get out at easily.

@ Mike in the Box, etc.

I don't understand the Locke as Saviour thing. We are to assume that the one's on Jacob's list are good and the ones the others want. I would assume that their saviour would be on the list, but Mikhail specifically said he definetely wasn't (something about his rage?) AND knew that Locke had been paralyzed in the past. Mikhail didn't seem to care one way or another. So what changed? Before Ben arrived at the camp (and before Ben was diagnosed with cancer) the Others seemed to have no fascination with him and now all of a sudden they do?

I don't think Locke's their messiah, I think it's just a giant manipulation. Ben wants to know why Locke was so drastically healed when he himself isn't. Locke has always needed to feel loved, special, and important and Ben is giving him that in order to get more information and be on his merry cancer-free way.

And I share Robert's view of Locke - any group of people who have Locke as a messiah/leader is screwed.

[Mark B]

@Cihan

I don't get what the difference is between 2x24 and 3x16 content wise. Assuming the 'story board' is in place for the final 48 episodes what does it matter if they do 1x48, 2x24 or 3x16 for the story-telling. The story will be told regardless, if the story has got to fill 48 hours then it will fill 48 hours. 2x24 with 3 filler episodes per season will convert to 3x16 with 2 being filler per season.Padding will be padding.

Unless of course they have a meta-story but need to fill it out with 'sidebars' or shock-horror they are making it up as they go along !! They could shoot then entire 48 episodes over the next 18 months and then feed us the episodes over the next 3 years. Essentially this is what was done with LotR and the 2nd and 3rd Pirates movies.

However I suspect that they don't have a description of the next 48 episodes just a series of stories they want to play out and a rough idea how long it will take to some extent they are adding sidebars as they go along. We know Ben was not intended to be a major character though an Others leader was.

My fear is that TPTB wanted "about 100" and are stuck with about 120 (20% more) which means the current story will be stretched over about an extra 20 episodes which in a 3x16 is an entire season (or about 75% of a 2x24) which will lead maybe to more filler or less action/answers or some storyline that TPTB didn't want to use which means that ratings will fall and so the 6th season will be cancelled. It will surely cost more to make 3x16 than 2x24 due to all the costs of shipping stuff to/from Hawaii and storing all the set material for an extra year if nothing else.

Personally I'd watch until the bitter end even though I'm leaving the US in the summer of '08 so will have to rely on itunes to keep up with S5 and S6.

[Kadayi]

With all the talk of an end date I was expecting the producers to announce one more season at best (which I'd of be happy with tbh). I can't say I'm in love with the idea of another 3 years, but the 16 episode a season deal definitely sounds like case of ABC stretching a 5 series offer by the producers. The positives to take from this are probably that the producers will have a bit more money to plough into each episode in terms of production values (no more shoddy photoshop and crap wigs), and obviously a lot more time to polish the end product in, in terms of dialogue, direction and performance.

[Mike in the Box]

@ Sobaika

The Locke as Christ-figure is not necessarily a literal theory, if you look at what i posted I think i said there were parallels. Basically, in relation to the Old Testament, the Israelites were expecting a Messiah that would be strong, powerful, politically minded and able to control the kingdoms of this world in order to bring Israel to its promised position of power over the rest of the nations. However, Jesus came onto the scene as the antithesis of their expectations. He would have appeared weak, even spineless when compared to their expected Messiah.

I am not saying that Locke is the key to the whole show, that he will rescue everyone, including the others; but it is a possibility.

[Ryan]

Hey guys, they just announced the end date for Lost, it will go for 48 more episodes, bringing the full count of episodes to 120.

Three more seasons will air with 16 shows in each season instead of the usual 22, 23, or 24 episodes.

Here is the URL from Yahoo:

http://tv.yahoo.com/news/article/urn:newsml:tv.reuters.com:20070507:lost_dc__ER:1

Love the podcast,

Stay Lost

[jg]

108 = poetic
120 = $ad, unless they can make $108,000,000 in profits that way. But, I would think they would have crossed that threshold already

[Cihan]

Mark B you are right in saying they 'make it up as they go along' because that is indeed what happens in a sense. Its not like there's over 100 scripts lying around to film. They know the ending of the story, and they have certain story points they want to hit before they get to the ending, but everything in between is made up closer to the filming date for practical reasons (availability of actors, locations, etc, etc). So if the seasons are shortened it simply means less stuff to make up (i.e - 'character' episodes) and more mythology for the fans. Its not a case of writing the story over 48 episodes, but structuring three seasons, each with its own beginning, middle and end, like the Big Questions we've had with each season so far, "Whats in the hatch?" "Whats the button?" and "Who are the Others?"

Honestly we should be very glad there is now an end point, the writers should consider themselves very lucky, there was no reason why ABC couldnt let this go on forever like X-Files.

[Radzinsky]

Since we've been Biblical today when we haven't been talking about how Lost will go for three more seasons -- and since we have Benjamin's backstory coming up this week -- I thought I'd share this wikipedia tidbit which would seem to tell us something about Ben's past:

-Benjamin-
Benjamin (Hebrew: בִּנְיָמִין; standard transliteration Benyamin, Tiberian vocalization Benyāmîn) is a Hebrew Bible figure. The name literally translates to "son of right," generally taken to mean "son of my right hand," but in some rabbinical traditions is "son of the right side [of the body]" or "son of the south," the youngest son of Jacob and Rachel (Genesis 35:18). The "right" direction had the connotation of strength or desirability.

His birth took place on the road between Bethel and Ephrath, which is identified with Bethlehem (Genesis 35:19). His mother Rachael died in childbirth, and with her last breath named him Ben-oni ("son of my pain"), an ill-omened name which was changed by his father into Binyamin. His posterity were the tribe of Benjamin, sometimes translated "Benjamites" (Genesis 49:27; Deuteronomy 33:12; Joshua 18:21).

******************

Mother dies in childbirth? On the road between Bethel and Ephrath? Interesting connection with the Island's current inhabitants...

~Radzinsky

[jg]

Subject: series length

OK, I guess we should be thankful for what we get.

"a camel is a horse designed by committee"

And, the camel is bigger...

[Tasha]

Five time podcaster - First time poster! ;o)

I scrolled through the above comments and I think a few of you have already alluded to this as well, but wanted to put it out there. Wish I'd thought of this pre-podcast...oh well!

What if there is no Jacob?!?
In the Wizard of Oz the “Man Behind the Curtain” is an average Joe from Kansas. He knew some slight of hand and was able to build a giant robot head in order to scare/manipulate people in to believing he was “Great and Powerful.” What if Jacob is the robotic head? Just a smoke screen Ben uses to hide behind and make himself seem more powerful.

[my-2-cents]

I'll take any number of episodes in a series I can get. I just don't like the extension to a THIRD year, when the series could have been wrapped just fine with even 2 years of 16 episodes. I'm not the one staying up late to write the shows, so I don't care if I get 16 beautiful eps or 24 in a year. It's more like I've been dating a beautiful traditional girl for 3 years, and I wanna close the deal before I sit through another 3 years of church, synagogue, etc. Of course our kids will be beautiful, but my "clock" is ticking.

Doc Waxman

[JackedupLockedown]

@ Tasha

First, how nice to have a celbrity on the board. Second there has for a long while now been a contingency that is convinced there is no Jacob. At this point I think too many people have expressed belief in him for them not to have some basis. Perhaps there was a Jacob and he is the religous symbol on the Island. I would not rule your thought out, but I am convinced Jacob is a person or at the least something tangible.

10 minutes until closing time...

-Jackie

[my-2-cents]

FREE-FORM JACOB

I'm impressed with the variety of interpretations on JACOB's role & significance. Clearly, we can all fashion JACOB into a form of our own liking:
http://www.ecawa.asn.au/home/jfuller/puppet/puppet.htm

Doc Waxman

[jg]

Subject: Jakob
Choices:
a) Real person, alive now
b) Mythical person
c) The writer of their Holy Book and long since dead
d) Facade that Ben uses for his own purposes
e) Super computer
I think I'll go with Jackie...choice (a)

[jg]

Super computer = J.K.B.

[Cihan]

Well if Ben's character wasnt meant to feature so prominently originally, and if the writers are sticking to the early plan they concocted, then there really is a 'great man' as Ben said while being tortured by Sayid, a man called Jacob....

I dont really have a theory though, I'm enjoying going into an episode not knowing wtf is going on, I'm waiting for the big reveal to entertain me immensely.

[jg]

@ Kevin,
Whereas I don't think Naomi is an Other, I do think your pickup on the Dicken's character and that Desmond has read all Dicken's stuff is more than an odd coincidence.

[Mark B]

subject: length
It's not the length that's important it's what they do with it. I guess I'm a 2x24 man not a 3x16. That extra year may seem like a year too far with those huge hiatuses. The content is what is important and I still belive they have a story to tell that will fill the time. I don't think they have 48 episodes pre-written but I thibk they have a story that they originally thought MAY fill a total of 100 hours of tv, stretching that to 120 could mean 20 hours of filler or 'new' stuff that is not top quality. I trust Cuse and Lindeloff to get the writers working. ABC should be appulded also and they may have pulled off another coup that others may follow.

subject: what/who is Jacob.
Nice list jg. I think Jacob is either someone who is alive who we've yet to see or is someone long dead. I don't think Ben is Jacob or has made Jacob up that would be too Wizard of Oz. The Man Behind the Curtain being Ben would be far too direct for LOST. However Ben may show Locke somethng/one that is not Jacob, just another con.

[JackedupLockedown]

As worthwhile a post as I have ever posted in my opinion.

*I'll use quotation marks for words of which I'll assign still arbitrary meanings as they become less ambiguous.

There is a consensus among Others. Both Ben Linus and Richard Alpert know Locke is "special". They however have differing views on how to best harness his "powers" or "gift".
I’ll start with Alpert. It’s already been mentioned in this comments section by CHALLABUCK that the name Richard Alpert is the birth name of the contemporary spiritual teacher and writer Ram Dass best known for schlepping around with Timothy Leary at Harvard in the 60’s. Alpert and Leary where into psychedelic and psychotropic drugs and are known to given lectures under the influence. After separating from Leary Alpert went to India and became Dass. He found enlightenment through spirituality and self realization and awareness. When asked if he could sum up his life's message Ram Dass replied, "I help people as a way to work on myself, and I work on myself to help people... To me, that's what the emerging game is all about."
As it relates to Lost, it would seem that Alpert would be the type to see the bigger picture. We can attempt to draw a correlation between the real life Alpert and Locke in terms of their experimentation with hallucinogenic substances as a way of finding guidance. Island Richard seemed to empathize with Locke’s unwillingness to slay his Father while stilling being sentient to the fact the he needed to dispose of Cooper before he could find his purpose.
Ben Linus is a leader whose numbers are dwindling and logically so to is the confidence of his people in him. He has shown a preference to interact through manipulation and based on Locke’s history sees him as a perfect mark. Rather then allowing Locke the freedom to find his path, Ben would rather handicap John and convince him he “needs” Ben. Ben’s sacrificial set-up was, as we touched on before, a win-win for him. Should Locke kill Cooper in which case he might lose his “connection” with the Island or at least certainly with Cerberus. In more likely event that Locke would abstain from spilling blood, Ben could humiliate and demean him which would further strengthen his hold on both Locke and his minions.
Delving deeper into the subtext of the religious ruins and harkening back to the season two finale and the four-toed statue I think we have unequivocal proof that there a) there have been people on this Island for a long time. & b) at some point they were reproducing as both the size of the statue and other ruins would suggest that multiple generations called it home.
There is a story I heard about through other Lost discussions about a town called Germelshausen . It takes place in the late second century. The residents of the town have a pact with God to protect it and keep it their own. It is invisible to the outside world all but one day every 100 years. When people from the outside world start showing up the villagers begin to suffer the unintended consequences, essentially feeling the wrath of God.
Perhaps this is what has befallen the LOST Island. Maybe it was the presence of Dharma that caused the infertility and maybe Ben’s embracing and holding onto the Dharma technology as well as his continually bringing in outsiders to the Island has turned it against him. Following the steam powered logic of this train I would surmise Jacob’s list is basically who belongs and who does not and similar to the “outsiders” in Germelshausen, accepting these people (Jack, as one example “Sheppard wasn’t on Jacob’s list”) brings negative consequences (Pickett dead).
Tying this in with the Ram Dass mention from earlier in this encyclopedia of a post, Alpert would be thinking the best way to address the fertility problem is to get back to trusting the Island (his world) and embrace its gifts. The best way to do this (according to Dass and seemingly Locke) is to find peace and harmony and embrace a minimalist approach to life. Being a man of faith not a man of science.
So it does not matter to Alpert or Ben that Locke has been a patsy his whole life, his connection to the Island is undeniable and clearly believed to be much stronger then anyone around has. Ben see’s Locke’s gullibility as a means to control him and is not concerned with him reaching his full potential on the Island. In fact he may prefer Locke does not as that could be viewed as a threat to his leadership and control. Alpert conversely has faith that regardless of Locke’s clumsy tendencies the Island will not lead him astray. Thus far it certainly has not; he is the only person we know to have survived multiple encounters with Cerberus and has been around all the healing that has taken place thus far. Also he dubbed Boone, who he immediately left, “The sacrifice the Island demanded” Where as Ben tried to suggest killing Cooper was “an act of freewill” Again showing the discrepancy between Ben’s outlook and Locke’s and potentially the Islands.

Okay now that I have applied multiple coats of logic let me clumsily add a speculation riddled theory in closing…Ben was not born on the Island but rather was the child of at least one member of Dharma initiative. Ben grew up or at least matured on the Island and befriended some of the natives in his time there. Dharma and the Natives are in conflict from day one. Ben leads the 1985 revolution (AH\MDG Incident) that resulted in the overthrow of Dharma in its present form and the c1991 purge that finished the job. Some of the scientists and researches and military sided with Ben and the rebel natives and formed the society that is currently the “others”. A sort of trail mix of people who have adopted their own interpretations of the Island and its enchantments. There still exists a core of natives who were not copasetic with Ben anymore then Dharma it is these people who attacked the tallies the first night, are responsible for the whispers and have forced the Others to take cover at the barracks and travel around in fake beards and tattered clothes. Sticking with my theory even as the outside cover evolves.

Hope you didn’t fall asleep reading

Jackie

[Symbha]

Just to put this to rest forever...

Helicopters easily have a service ceiling high enough to safely 'bail out' of. Bad ass helicopters, like say the blackhawk, apache, etc have serrvice ceilings higher than normal skydiving operations in general (which is 12,500 feet,) much less just bailing out, which can be done in a thousand feet or less.

In the skydiving world, people pay extra to jump out of helicopters.

So anyway, at least that part of Naomi's story is possible, if not plausible.

[Edgar]

@Radz
Certainly the Locke emmulation of Jesus is strong - right up to Locke putting his dad on his back - and the way he did that - like Jesus carrying his cross (And the covered head and shoulders looking roughly like a cross.

Will be interesting to see what Sawyer does now that his revenge has been satisfied. His entire reason for living, his name, his profession, are all without meaning now. Seems to me he is free to be on his own journey, just as Locke is. On Lost, however, that is usually a ticket off the island in a death scene.

[Mark B]

I just worked out why ABC have gone 3x16 not 2x24. It's simple --- DVD sales. They'll sell seasons 4, 5 and 6 for the same price as seasons 1, 2, and 3 yet the first three are 50% longer.

[Joop]

Not Guilty

We're not in Kansas anymore, or Texas either. Locke did not pay, bribe, or coerce Sawyer. He did him a favor.

Why carry him though? I would have just brought Ben the f--kers head.

Joop©

[JackedupLockedown]

A letter to Mark B from the ABC Cash, I mean Brass

Dear Mark B.,

We at ABC are in$ulted that think we would alter the layout of a $erie$ just to increa$e DVD $ale$. The thought of profit being our #1 goal is so money I forgot to cash, I mean so funny I forgot to laugh. Anyway you need only look to the topic de jour (The bible) to truley see why we have entended Lost.
$incerly yours,
Piles O. Money
2nd Earl and 4th Duke of Television, ABC

[jg]

@ Jackie,
I'm so happy that you brought up Germelshausen. This has been an itch I haven't been able to scratch. It may again be germain to our discussion.

Subject: Rosicrucian clues

@ Jackeduplockedown,

I think this Rosicrucian connection is strong. You may find the following research therapeutic in your convalescence. I have just begun to look into this myself.

• I thought that perhaps the Island was like Brigadoon.
• Brigadoon is the Anglo version of a short story called Germelshausen
• Christian Rosenkreutz is the last of the Family “Germelshausen”
• Christian Rosenkreutz is the grand mythic character of the Rosicrucians.

Therefore, is Christian Rosenkreutz a Jacob prototype?

Germelshausen
http://www.all-story.com/issues.cgi?action=show_story&story_id=136

Christian Rosenkreutz
http://www.alchemylab.com/christian_rosenkreutz.htm

Rosicrucian (previously posted by eve)
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/dragon9/ROSICRUCIANS.html

Perhaps this is something…but more likely it is yet another of my theory “bottle rockets” that is spiraling out of control and will crash in the creek.

[JackedupLockedown]

@ jg

Was that your post? I had forgotten that was from this site. I thought it was from the fuselage or the numbers forum. Good find either way. Very good stuff and it points back to Jakob Boehme, which by the way i noticed you spell Jakob with a "K" and not a "c" I only stopped because it's with a "c" everywhere else. Still we might have it all right there, the pieces fit together nicely don't they. All the symbols too. Whoever sent me those links Thanks very much I enjoyed them immensely.

These pretzels are making me thirsty

-Jackie

[JackedupLockedown]

PS: No posts since 6 O'clock

are all you people east coast?

[Mark B]

Nope CST, Heroes was on ..... 2 hour finale next week .... at least I think it said that.

[JackedupLockedown]

@ Mark B

How is Heroes?...I've heard good things and Lost for dummies.

[Mike in the Box]

@ Joop

"Why carry him though? I would have just brought Ben the f--kers head."

At the end of the episode, I turned to my friends and said, "Why doesn't he just cut his dad's head off and stick it in a backpack."

[JackedupLockedown]

@ Joop and Mike

You're both equally sick. lol Good Night!

Jackie

[Joop]

Just lazy :)
Joop©

[Mark B]

@JackedUp
Heroes is pretty good. Not LOST but clearly a show which would not have ben made if it was not for LOSTs success. Not as 'deep' as LOST -- or at least I don't think of it like that, I'm sure there are 'references' and easter egss in it just I don't spend time looking for them. Group of stangers with wierd powers working together to save the world from disaster. I'm sure they are going to make a second season which if you ask me was not in the original plan as there is one clear storyline which looks like it's altered slightly over the course of the season, may not be as good then. Worth buying/netflicking the DVDs. I think it's avaliable to download from itunes or nbc.com.

[Mark B]

According to this report Lindeloff and Cuse are staying for the duration .... which is good news .... shame about the 3x16 format though ....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6633863.stm

[Cihan]

About the length: If they had 100 episodes worth of story, and now have to stretch it to 120, just remember this fact: before this announcement there was no end date at all. ABC could have let this go on for 200 episodes or more and utterly ruin the story. Like you say Mark B, I hope this is setting a precedent for more networks to announce end dates for serialised shows (uh, not before the season is out like Fox did with Drive, which I was quite enjoying damnit)

Also, about last week's Heroes which everyone was exlcaiming the 'best ever', I couldnt believe the Matrix influence dripping off of it, Peter's coat was 99% identical to Neo's in Reloaded. ¬_¬

Anyone watched Spiderman 3 yet? I was very disappointed, its a complete mess of a film. Still enjoyable in parts (Parker dancing his way around NY!) but a real step down from the previous two films.

[Mark B]

@Cihan

You are right 120 is better than 200+ and LOST dying a slow tragic death by ratings drop. As I said ABC should be applauded for this. LOST was never going to run forever like the formulaic "Cop-Doctor-Lawyer" or sitcom tv shows. I really hope it does keep up momentum for the three seasons and that last season is made 2010 seems so far away. I bet ABC can cancel the show at any point.

I hope NBC do the same end date scenario for Heroes if it's going into the 2nd season .... anyone know if it's been renewed ?

[Jason]

I still don't know what to think about the format. I love that it has an end date, and also love that it's not close enough that I have to start having a nervous breakdown of a life after lost.

On one hand the 3x16 format seems to me to just drag it out more than it needs to be... but on the other hand if Lost makes 16 episodes in the time most shows take to make 23, it's possible they could be able to put more time into each episode, thus increasing the overall quality. That or they needed to allow for lots of breaks in order to give the actors a chance to fail in a film career BEFORE leaving the show. Another first, usually TV actors have to fail in film careers after they leave their cash cow of a TV show.

In regards to Heroes, it's certianly no Lost. I love the show, but don't really see them setting an end date, or even needing too. Heroes, by all accounts of the creators, is NOT one big long story. It's a lot of loosely connected chapters. The creators have promised that there is a resolution to this season, and even that next season will be about mainly new characters, and an entirely different story. Lost is one big story, so it makes sense to need an end date so that one story doesn't get prematurely canceled. Heroes can run until NBC decides to pull the plug, at which point whatever "chapter" they are on, will just be the last one.

[my-2-cents]

Doc to ABC: "2 x 16 all the way!"

Doc Waxman

[JackedupLockedown]

@ Cihan

Thinking about seeing it at lunch today. Getting dragged there if I go.
I heard the same about Spiderman as you said. To tell you the truth I was not a big fan of the first two either. While I thought they were pretty well written and did a nice job laying out the story,(I loved the Comic) the acting has been terrible from day one. Toby is horrible and has no bussiness being in the movie. He could put me to sleep at a Black Sabbath concert. And Dunst in addition to having one of the worst faces in hollywood is a medicore actress who knows nothing about spiderman and said in an interview "I'm just glad it's over, one is great, two is alright three is like lets do something else"...best comic book movies I've seen to date: The Punisher, X-Men, Batman Begins. Worst: The Hulk

@ Jason

I hope you're right and the show just gets better from having more time to do fewer episodes. My main concerb is what I'll call the "Perrineau factor" I read somewhere that he doesn't want to come back; that's my concern, in three years are all the characters they plan to keep alive still going to be willing to work for the show? I hope so.

SPOILER SPECULATION: Based on the three seasons plan, my guess is there will be a rescue of sorts sometime between now and the end of season four. You gotta clear out some of these characters and I just can see killing a Rose or Bernard or Claire or Sayid or especially Hurley. And realisticly can we have three more seasons of back story for some of those characters? While it doesn;t bother me, I know a lot of fans have not liked how R and B have been MIA this season. END OF SPOILERS

@ jg

If your around the next couple days lets through some Germelshausen\Rosacrucian speculation back and forth.

Happy South Korean Parents Day (yes it really is)
-Jackie

[karen - san antonio]

all this talk of the box.. you ask for it and it appears..
so is the black rock a thing asked for? A childs dream.. reading peter pan - creates the ship, even never never land?
could we go as far as saying the island is as well was created?
just ramdom thoughts.

but as always you are the best pod cast!

[jg]

@ Jackie,
OK. But my life is a series of crises, interspersed with time sitting on my thumbs. So, I would like to check this stuff out... but, my responses may not be timely.

[Radzinsky]

@ Jackie

Excellent post up there before. I did not realize that "Richard Alpert" bears a real-world significance, but that information adds another piece to our Lost theory puzzle, doesn't it?

Do you see the parallels between the Others and the Castaways that have developed now that we have this split among the Others?

Man of Science vs. Man of Faith?

Jack vs. Locke?

Richard vs. Ben?

If we see a reorganization of the "teams" on the Island, could it possibly be along these lines?

As for theorizing about Ben's backstory, we now have the following:

(1) Ben was born OFF the Island (Jackie)
(2) Ben's mother died in childbirth (Radz)
(3) Ben was born along a road, between destinations (Radz)
(4) Ben led a revolution/started the Purge against Dharma (Jackie)

Big episode airs tomorrow...

~Radzinsky

[Mark B]

Re: Heroes
So they've said we'll see the end of the "Save the Cheerleader Save the World" next week and then get a whole new story next season ... not sure I like that. I assumed they'd save NY and Silar would escape and so the saving would continue just somewhere else. Mmmm.

Re: length
I like that they have set an end date. I'm coming round to the 3x16 if they spend the time in making the episodes but I think they won't. Those long hiatuses are going to be very long. I like the idea of a rescue and then some off island clean up. I wonder if R&B will die in the finale ? Bit of a cop out but still the actors have been busy doing other work, it happens. 16 episodes a season will be roughly one flashback per main character -- if Juliet, Ben, and Naomi count and nobody dies. If you throw in Mikhail, Alpert, Rousseau and Tom as potential flashbackers then you'd have more potential flashbacks than episodes.

re: island created .....
Blimey imagine of the Black Rock was stuck in a huge storm in this wierd spot in the ocean (like the Bermuda Triangle but in the Pacific -- where is the Dragons Triangle ?) and someone (Hansos grandfather) wished they had somewhere to land ..... interesting theory, probably not right but interesting.

[Jason]

@JackedupLockedown

I agree with the Perrineau factor thats why I'm hoping since they've now set the date of 3 years, that they worked out contracts with whatever actors they need for that full three years. Personally thats one of the reasons I really wanted them to get an end date, since I suspect an actor is more likely to sign up for the full run of the show if they know it'll be done in three years. (as I mentioned before I also suspect the shorter seasons will allow actors to do more side projects)

[Cihan]

Has anyone seen Terrence Malick's The Thin Red Line? I would like the end of Lost to have the same last shot of that film. (if I'm remembering it correctly)

@ Jackedup. The actor that plays Harry in Spiderman 3 steals the show. He has the best sh*t-eating grin in the world at one point in that movie.

[my-2-cents]

100 Posts!

Preview of latest Latest Q&A from Cuse & Lindelof:
http://www.thetailsection.com/lost-spoilers/exclusive-preview-qa-with-damo.php#more

I knew it! Old Star Wars/Palpatine speculation:
http://www.lostcasts.com/2007/04/get_ready_for_s.html#comment-65420986

Doc Waxman