LOSTCasts 56: The Man Behind the Curtain

This latest podcast focuses on season 3, episode 20 of LOST, The Man Behind the Curtain. We talk about Sawyer's uncovering of Juliet's agenda at the beach, Ben's backstory and Locke and Ben's visit to see Jacob.

Download podcast #56 here

Links related to the podcast:
General reactions from Darkufo
J. Wood on The Man Behind the Curtain

LOST links:
Variety article on LOST end date
Doc Jensen interview on end date
Video of synchronized crash events
Black20.com LOST parody video

Only 2 more episodes left in season 3 of LOST!

Comments

[Tahir]

Thanks mates.

[sam]

woo hoo, second place!!

[sam]

ok, don't know if you guys address this in your podcast because I'm downloading it as i'm typing, but, thanks to Tivo, i saw something amazing. Apparently, you can see the mysterious jacob for a total of 10 or 11 frames! I wanted to watch the scene in slow motion just to see if I could catch a glymps of Jacob as a production error, but apparently he was ment to be seen for that short amount of time. You can see the video for this @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1Ma5QRsSMQ
it slows down the scene, so you can see Jacob. Who do you think he is??

[Mark B]

What control does Matt have more of than Robert ?

I can't make it out. I'm sure it's a US thing.

[james De Mass]

Is Jacob actually Lock from another time or dimension? the more i watch the more I feel that time and space and times are coliding and crossing paths.

But where is the future tec unless its the smoke smonsters that are from the future?

[Joop]

@ Mark B

LOL 'Scene control'. Basically Matt & John were manipulative enough to get away on mothers day. Robert...not so much.

Joop©

[Cihan]

1] If ships and planes have been crashing on the island for a long time then I guess that can account for not only the hostiles' clothes, but how they had their own weapons and such, I mean you can imagine them coming across WW2 weaponary for example. Infact, wasnt there a WW2 weapon in season 2? A knife or pistol or something?

2] I still think the fact that in one episode we see the fence stopping Smokey, and then in another we see a dead character within the fence (that would never be left off for any reason) simply means Smokey is not changing into dead characters. They're both seperate. Also, dead characters never interact with reality as far as I'm aware, whereas Smokey very much does so (R.I.P Eko) However having said that, Jacob does throw Ben against a wall... If Jacob is not responsible for dead characters, how about the opposite of Smokey: a white entity. This would make Locke's "two sides, white and black" comment gain more relevance. (I'm still with Jacob = dead people theory though)

3] Although the last talkback got over 400, I dont think there was much conversation about Juliet. Previously most of us were trying to rationalize her decision to side with Ben over the Losties, assuming that she would side with whoever had the best chance of escaping the island, but right now it appears she's sided with the Losties. Assuming she's not going to double-cross Jack, what do we think of her decision?

4] Mikhail must be ex-Dharma, because otherwise why would the others (who must be mostly natives) just stand and watch him get beat up by Locke?

5] Jacob is not Locke, come on...dont make me go G.O.B. on you all...COME ON!!! Where are all these 'parallel characters travelling through time' theories coming from? Its all because of Adam and Eve isnt it? (hmm, I just remembered I still dont own the 3rd season of Arrested Development...)

6] I dont think anyone on Flight 815 was an other, I mean people freakin' died in the crash. Cindy's just been brainwashed by The Room.

[Jamie (c)]

@ Cihan - point #6, if you knew what seats would survive ahead of time in the crash, you would make sure the people you wanted were seated there, right?

As well as being in the right place when the time came. So consider Desmond's ability as applied to the crash.

It makes it possible.

[Alex]

Is it possible that the people on the island are clones? Ben has a white rabbit in the episode. In the episode when the others were implanting (read: not implanting) that thing on Sawyers heart, they tested it on a rabbit with the number 7 on it. Maybe the rabbit is being cloned. If the rabbit is being cloned....then who else.

[Cihan]

@ Jamie (c). I dont know man, you're asking me to suspend alot of disbelief to think that certain people would remain unharmed in a plane crash. I think we're just meant to accept that some people survived either by chance or fate. Plus its no coincidence they show us The Room and then Cindy acting like nothing's wrong in the world within a couple episodes of each other. That old occam's razor chestnut methinks...

...if the crash was so cordinated to make various people survive, I dont think I'm going to nod along and go "ok", I'll be pretty pissed because its just too ludicrous for me. Plus its not practical, just insert Others into the airport, not onto the plane itself, they can make their way back to the island via sub.

You do mention Desmond's ability though, which is interesting, maybe another character suffers the same condition, that would be very interesting indeed... (even though I currently believe it was a hallucination caused by a third party, not literal time travel)

[james De Mass]

to the lost cast and losties out there have we ever done a checklist of everything we know for fact?
check list

polar bears
darma (wanting to change the numerical code to the end of human life)(the numbers)
hostiles ( still not sure there history here)
tailies
losties
cable?
lost island due to? (force protection barrier)
smokemonsters (before darma? or result of darma gone amuck since darma all gone now)
island has magnetic properties which does in fact mess with brain wave activity (visions, horse, jacob,ect ect....
Island has been there for a long time(at least since the black rock landed)

all help would be good

we have a long time before we return so an eposide on this might help dig up some truths

[Darthnexus78]

Lost has gotten weird eh?

[Darthnexus78]

Personally I believe the creators of LOST are making so many questions and mysteries that by the end of LOST season 6 (Ending 2009) the american and Canadian Audiance will be completely brainwashed. Does any one agree?
how about you James de mass?

[Mark B]

Re: Jacob
I don't think this is right as I think Jacob is a new character and a single entity somehow trapped in the cabin only visible under certain circumstances -- light light from a torch. But back to what I don't think is right .... what if everyone sees Jacob as themselves -- this would explain the similarity to Locke in the TIVO moment. Apparently God made man in his own image so why not Jacob being a 'mirror'.

Re: Natives on the Plane
No way. I've always mantained that the risk is too high to place people on the plane. Unless of course you already know which seats will 'survive'. But if that's the case then Shannon and Boone and Jack should have died as they got different seats to those they were originally assigned. Unless you know they were getting moved but then that would just be too confusing. The other thing that makes me think that is the Ben line "There may even be survivors". If anyone would knoew about people being placed Ben would.

I skipped the last 10 mins of the cast to avoid spoilers ... was there anything else in there ? If any of the Lostcasters read this one request for next season would be to add chapters to the cast so we can skip the spoilers but not miss any non-spoiler stuff at the end.

[Darthnexus78]

1.)Are the characters of LOST really in hell or perhaps purgatory? I mean they have all done criminally things.
2.) Has Locke really died? It has not been revealed that Locke died he was just in pain.
3.) Where the heck is Michael and Walt? are they dead? Walt had special powers, maybe he has to do with the island.
4.) the finale episode of LOST better be damn good or else millions of fans will be really REALLY pissed.
Some plz answer back as soon as possible.

[Darthnexus78]

Ever thought that the LOST island looks suspicoicly like the Jurassic park island??? MMM? MMM? I don't know call me crazy...

[Cihan]

Regardless of how the show ends, 50% will love it, 50% will hate it. (and I'm being generous) They wont be able to please everyone.

[Darthnexus78]

That's for sure man people are picky picky picky! I hope Locke does not die he is my favourite character next to Sawyer (yes Sawyer).
Please read my prevous article

[Darthnexus78]

Maybe the LOST island is a giant Turtle! ever see the "Never Ending Story"? Just like that turtle.

[Darthnexus78]

If Anyone is a Current player of www.runescape.com
plz tell me your username
mine is Darthnexus78
Alright?
thnx -LOST rox my sox!

[Darthnexus78]

Remember when Ben called Locke a special one , a..a.. chosen one if you will, if this is supposedly true, maybe ben shot locke because he thought he'd survive (somehow).
Perhaps the "help me" mesage from Jacob (my best friend's name by the way)is actually Locke warning his present self to watch out for Ben shooting him.
***********************************************************
Why was their an episode entirerly dedicated to those people (i forget their names) the girl wantied the jewels and paralized her boyfriend ...ummm..palo i believe and then they both were burried alive? No questions where answered or solved, so wat was the purpose? so someone plz enlighten me! i'm logging out at 8:30 so make it quick plz....

[rok]

it's worth pointing out that locke was one of the three people inside the hatch when it imploded. if we can assume that desmond is in some weird here but not here, now but not now phase ased on his own flashbacks, and being WITHIN one of his own flashbacks, then wouldn't it stand to reason that locke could possibly have been sent back in time and then ripped forward as well, creating jacob? but then why would jacob be going by any other name than john? of course, kelvin inman shows the producers/writers have no problem with just re-writing some folk's names to suit the storyline (one of the weakest retcons ever, IMHO)

eko was the third of the hatch, of course, but he died before any of this could really affect him too much... did n't he say he wanted off the show, or got fired or in trouble or something? i wonder if mr. eko was going to figure in a larger way to the whole series, but they've had to do writing damage control ever since. same deal with libby and/or ana lucia.

p.s. why is everyone trusting juliet again? didn't she still inject something into claire to counteract the "chip"? did she ever tell anyone about that? or are we just to assume jack knows about that now?

p.p.s. i don't think jack dies. there's still too much wrapped up through him, and no one can take on a leadership role other than john. HEY! what if some forthcoming "incident" MERGES jack and john into what will eventually become jacob? or merges all three of jack, john and ben... jacob's name has letters from all three, after all. okay, that would REALLY send us into crazy-story town, but it's just something that popped into mind while typing.

[rok]

also, that youtube spliced together plane crash is so good, i think i'd pay money for a dvd set of the entire series run spliced back together in chronological order. get all the backstories, and then the crash, and then whatever... of course, you'd have to remove all of the "shoop" sounds when characters reveal a flashback, but i have to think it would give an entirely new perspective on the series, and pretty interesting, too.

[Cal]

Has anyone noticed that a certain scene from 'TMBTC' is a homage to the ending of 'The Prisoner'? It may be a bit of a stretch but there's a possibility that this is a clue to the actual whereabouts of the Island. Locke's dad may not have been referring to Hell when he mentioned a couple of times in 'The Brig' about the location they were currently in.

Just a thought.

And also who on the island keeps waxing Sawyers chest???

[Cordell C]

Anyone ever consider that the Cadbury marking on Juliet may simply be a symbol of fertility. I mean, she is a fertility doctor. Perhaps all of the others have markings indicating their purpose and the punishment aspect was a ploy to fool Jack.. Although the marking was fresh so that makes that aspect hard to stretch.

[Cordell C]

Cal: The same guy that cuts Jack's hair so short.

[Sobaika]

Podcast ideas before Season 4:

1) Take a good long break, you guys deserve it. Maybe start up again in September?

2) Read and summarize other books referenced in the show (done last year and was very interesting)

3) Lost has also referenced some movies - maybe summarizing them as well?

3) PLEASE look into the message boards idea - especially after this podcast's 400+ post breakthrough.

4) Go though IGN’s list of top 50 LOST “loose ends" like a checklist, taking off mysteries that can never truly be solved (why is the island so strange?), that've already been at least semi addressed via Lost Experience (numbers), that've been solved through deleted scenes or D&C interviews (Kate's wrists after breakfast with Ben), answers in Season 3, and adding new mysteries that developed in Season 3.

5) Going through old theories (anyone remember the Ultimate Theory?) and seeing if they still hold up.

6) As it gets closer to Season 4, a spoiler cast going through whatever new information we get on the new season.

[Cihan]

That Youtube plane crash montage is very good, I was impressed. I'm sure someone with a lot of time is eventually going to make an unofficial chronological edit of Lost...

I also think its reasonable for the LostCast gang to go on a break, but at least give us a simple message board first so we can kill time. Doesnt have to be fancy, just a couple forums, one for site news/announcements, one for Lost, and one for general crap.

[Mark B]

Re: Off Season
Take a long break. I seem to recall that John saying he is away the weekend after the final episode so I guess we'll have our own little hiatus until early June --- after that do whatever you want.

I think Matt Jones killed the message board idea a while ago.

I like the idea of a Theorycast -- the prvious ones have been some of the best casts. Going over that Long Lost List off The Fuselage, or the old IGN list Sobiaka suggested would work.

The book review would be interesting but reading takes up a lot of time -- maybe some books with LOST related themes rather than the books on LOST. 'The Stand' springs to mind as one that seems to always come upand I'm guerssing you've already read it.

Just wondering whatever happened to the stalwarts of the comments section, the likes of Sphere TL, biolite, Kathy aka Fangirl, Jon W, Matt Lafferty, I Love Sayid, Lucidlife etc ..... they don't seem to post anymore have they gone to (dare I say it) another LOST site ?

[Rachel]

@Darthnexus78
The island probably looks so much like Jurassic Park island because they are both filmed on the same island in Hawaii.

[Jose]

Actually, Lost is filmed on the island of Oahu. Jurassic Park was filmed on Kauai...

[Matt J]

@Mark B,

Scene Control: The art of manipulating the relationship dynamic so you can do what you want to do with minimal to no spousal/girlfriend consequence.

Scene control can be measured on a sliding scale. At one end is Hugh Hefner. At the other end is Robert.

[joop]

It should be noted that scene control is rendered useless during menstruation.

Joop©

[Jamie ©1955]

What to do on break? Re-watch all the episodes starting from the pilot and create new podcasts for each. I bet it would be 'interesting' to review them a second time.

Then repaint my house and put up a new fence for my side yard. :)

Love,

jamie ©1955 (with new improved moniker)

[Ms. Blugh]

The mispronounciation of "Ray Harryhausen" and then the subsequent diss of the skeletons from Jason & The Argonauts as lame in this week's podcast was eye-opening. I guess I shouldn't expect much for the guy pushing one of the lamest LOST theories ever (Mikael = Smokey), but still... have some respect for possibly the greatest master-craftsmen in the history of special effects.

[Radzinsky]

RE: Annie = Rousseau

Am I alone in thinking that the news from the official podcast that "Annie will be revisited in future episodes" makes it more likely that she is, in fact, Rousseau? They wouldn't have much more of Annie's story to tell if she was a throwaway character from Ben's backstory.

Just acknowledging this as a possibility...

Congrats to everyone on the 400+ posts last week.

~Radzinsky

[Loren]

Hello everyone!

Well, its certainly been a long time since I've posted but now that finals are over, I can get back into the swing of things for the last few episodes!

First off, i think this was definitely one of the best and most versatile lost episodes ever. I jumped and screamed, i got upset and teary, i yelled at my computer in anger, it was amazing.

I would love to think that Jacob is Locke via the time travelling business, just because that would be so eerie. However, I seem to remember the writers saying a long long time ago (in a galaxy far away) that everything on LOST could be scientifically explained. I've been holding on to that statement for a very long time, using it to counter friends' arguments that LOST is just too weird and sci-fi. However, once Smokey came around, I found that statement harder to stand by. And now, with Desmond travelling back in time, and Jacob being a sometimes-there-sometimes-not being, I'm getting a little (aka really) confused. Dont get me wrong, I absolutely love Lost right now, I just wonder if anyone else remembers this long lost promise. Many of my theories have been based around the fact that everything could really be explained scientifically so perhaps I should change my way of thinking. Just an open-ended thought...

As for the off-season podcast plans, Im always partial to the theories cast! Sobaika- I totally remember the Ultimate Theory! One part of the Ultimate Theory that I thought was going to be so relevant was the mention of claire's observation that there weren't any brushes in anyone's luggage. But that one kind of fell off the radar, didn't it? :( And, of course, I'm still waiting for the Philadelphia Experiment to make its big debut on Lost.
I think doing podcasts for season one and even re-doing season two would be lots of fun, given all that we have learned of late. However, one podcast per episode might be a bit of a strain so even reviewing 3 episodes per podcast would be helpful and exciting.

This was a great podcast for a great episode! Thanks for keeping up the wonderful work!

[Mark B]

@Radz
I'm thinking Annie could be Danielle but it could also be that as many people posted in the 400 Ben and Annie had a more grown-up relationship and she died. She may have died in childbirth and that could have tipped Ben over the edge into the whole Dharma purge.

It could be that Alex is Bens biological child and Danielle is full of it. Danielle could however be telling the truth but Ben is still Alexs father as he raised her. The initial Ben-Alex-Danielle contact will be interesting -- how will Alex find out which one is telling the truth ? Either way I have the feeling that Alex is going to be responsible for Bens death or even kill him. There is a trend .... Locke got Saywer to kill his Dad. Ben killed his Dad. Kate killed her Dad. Jack in effect drove his dead to his death. Jin "killed" his Dad (he said he was dead). Not sure what happened to Charlie or Claire or Sayids Dads yet. I'm sure Alex gave Locke the gun so he could kill Ben.

[Jamie ©1955]

@ Ms. Blugh, right on Ms. - btw I've met Ray a couple times while he was out doing film festivals, such a cool guy who's enjoying his golden years (at least it seemed like it).

Oh, and the Dharma Zombie Army was my idea. (blush)

http://tinyurl.com/26p3h7

[JackedupLockedown]

I am sure I will post this 100 more times but:

NO ONE OFFICIALLY AFFILIATED WITH LOST EVER SAID THE SHOWS MYSTERYS WOULD BE SCIENTIFICALLY EXPLAINED...Damon and Carlton used the term "psuedo-science" when addressing that question in a somewhat recent OLPodcast.

@Radz

I don't think Annie is Rousseau, I am sticking with my previous Rousseau theory. She tells the truth about her life before she got to the Island, but leaves out a lot of what she knows about it. Also that's not her on the distress signal transmission...and heres why

Rousseau claims to have changed the transmission after everyone in her team was dead.

However the voice in the transmission makes a reference to someone named Brennan.

The voice in the transmission also mentioned keys without being specific as to what they were for. This would imply the person sending the message knows (or thinks they know) who will be recieving the message.

Rousseau would not have had any idea who might hear the signal.

Remember she tells the survivors her story after they hear the distress signal. Why would she tell them such an inconsistent story if she knows they could translate her message.

So to me it suggest that she did change the transmission but that it was changed again, likely during the purge, though that is just speculation.

Finally, to address the Jack and Juliet side of the storyline which really has played second banjo this week; I still don't trust Juliet fully. She is a lair like Ben, and like all liars when they get caught in a lie they admit guilt to a small lie to protect the greater con.
Like when Locke caught Ben lying in the tent. Ben admitted to John "you know you were right John, not everything I said is entirley true"
When Juliet gets caught she throws herself on their mercy. She is most likely playing both sides, and is inclined to do whatever is best for her. She clearly has on motivation and that is to get the hell off the Island.

Another quality Podcast, but "the Purge happened in '86 or something" c'mon now guys. No one of the board even brought up '86. Real good job however addressing all the major questions the show posed and adding thoughtful speculation.

Jackie

[Radzinsky]

@ Mark B

RE: Murderous Daddy Issues

Excellent speculation about the Daddy-deaths among the characters -- and if the pattern holds true, Alex will indeed be Ben's killer. That's the best explanation I've heard yet for why Alex gave Locke the gun... something, which I might add, has not been discussed very much in the near-500 posts we've had since last week's episode.

I happen to think that Ben's demise will come sooner rather than later. My thinking that Ben will die soon comes in a few steps: (1) The deaths of the Island's women are similar to the death of Ben's mother; (2) Ben either brought the fertility problems to the Island or the Island/Jacob created them as retaliation against Ben's on-Island behavior; (3) They will not kill Sun with her pregnancy; (4) Ben's death solves the fertility problems. If Alex is the one to do it, you've scored some big points here, MB.

@ JackedupLoosecannon

RE: Annie/Rousseau

I thought for a while about the distress call this weekend and shared it with my buddies. We agreed about a few things. Rousseau was broadcasting to someone who could rescue her, and the people who could rescue her would have to know where and what the Black Rock is.

Could she have been broadcasting her distress call to the rest of her team? I think not -- by that time they were all dead, correct? She had supposedly killed them. Could she have been broadcasting to some other outside people? Also unlikely -- they wouldn't know about the Black Rock, that comment would have no meaning to them.

I would postulate -- and Jackie, I hope you think this is at least well-thought out, even if you don't agree with it -- that Rousseau would be broadcasting her distress call to people already ON THE ISLAND. They would be the only ones to know where the Black Rock was, I assume. I hazard a guess that she was broadcasting during or just after the Purge, and that she was trying to reach any Dharma survivors, hoping that they could gather at the Black Rock.

About the whole, "I'm locked in here and Brennan took the keys..."

This could possibly fit with a Ben-rescued-Annie-before-the-Purge set of events, no? What if Brennan=Ben just as Annie=Rousseau? Could it have been a Frenchification of a name, just as Montagne or Montand might equal Marvin or Marc from orientation video fame? Wouldn't it be too obvious for the writers to use "Ben" in the distress call, just as it would have been too obvious to name Annie "Dani" or "Danielle"? What if Ben's way of rescuing Annie was to put her in the radio tower and lock her in until the Purge was over? The "he" or "it" referred to could be Ben, the "killed them all" could be all of the Dharma people -- though at the time, Rousseau couldn't be sure, so she left a message for any survivors that she'd try to make it to the Black Rock.

Why would Rousseau give the castaways a different story?

Well, if the father of your child led a crazed, probably violent religious sect on the Island -- and if you knew that the castaways were going to have trouble with these people soon -- would you spill the beans right away if you were Rousseau? In fact, she does tell them something, doesn't she?

When Ben gets himself "caught" in one of Rousseau's traps, she says with utter conviction that Ben is "one of them." Doesn't she also say that you "can't believe anything" he says? That doesn't sound like a comment you'd make about somebody that you had relatively little contact with in your life, does it? It sounds to me like they have some common, shared experience that indicates that they know of each other.

Meanwhile, Rousseau has been living in the jungle for nearly two decades, the Others have been leaving her alone -- she is not about to tell the castaways that Ben is her former lover and the father of her child -- they would be just as likely to blame her for the deception as him -- think that she was one of the Others when she wasn't. We've seen this sort of reluctance to get involved from Rousseau time and time again now... at the Flame Station, at the Barracks.

Now, given this new information that Annie will appear in another flashback... I think the case gets stronger. Ask yourself, whose flashback will Annie appear in? Ben's? Possibly -- it could explain his motivations for the Purge if she died in childbirth, as some have postulated. The only other option is Rousseau's, or maybe Alex's. And, if that's the flashback where it happens, I think maye could go as I have theorized.

@ Anyone else interested in Rousseau as Annie...

I'd be very curious to know a few things:

(1) Were Annie's eyes blue? Can anyone confirm?

(2) Did anyone pay careful attention to Rousseau's actions as she approached the Barracks and when she saw them? Was there any reaction there?

~Radzinsky

[Jamie ©1955]

@ Radzinsky

Annie's eyes are Hazel, at least they looked that way in the best HD pict I saw. I doubt she's Rousseau, doesn't look like her or Alex, could just be bad casting.

Interesting to note that IMDB lists her character name as Emily (I'm sure that's a mistake, the teacher's name was Emily) and this last episode (so far) was the only one she is credit for.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1630992/

I'm thinking IMDB isn't a good source of info. :)

[Darthnexus78]

In just two days the next LOST episode will air on ABC it shall be called "Greatest Hits" it has been rumoured Charlie Pace will die in this episode...Here is a referance from Wikipedia the online encyclopedia...

"Greatest Hits" is the twenty-first episode of the third season of Lost. It will air on May 16, 2007, making it the 68th episode of the series. The character of Charlie Pace will be featured in the episode's flashbacks.

Synopsis
While Jack devises a plan that could get rid of the Others once and for all, Sayid discovers a flaw in the Others system that could lead to everyone's rescue, but it requires Charlie to undertake a dangerous task that will, according to one of Desmond's premonitions, result in his inevitable death.

Remember I would like to know if anyone plays Runescape
if you do please put your username. thank u!

[Lorne]

I just have to say that was a great connection between Locke getting Sawyer to kill his father, and Alex trying to get Locke to kill her father.
Also, another solid observation that the dead people != smokey, because of the fence.
Very interesting episode overall, and it definitely launches it into a level.

[chris in oly]

Re: Locke as Jocob

Seeing the discussion of eye colors in whether Annie is Rosseau, the same can be applied to Locke and Jacob. If the brown eye flashed in the scene with Jacob is Jacob's eye, then blue eyed Locke cannot be Jacob. (Do you keep your original eye color when you become disembodied?) If the brown eye is the eye of an Other watching from the distance, then it may still be possible for Locke to be Jacob.

The only real support for this theory is the 'Expose' episode where Billy Dee Williams turns out to be the bad guy all along. But the producers kinda dissed this theory in one of the podcasts. I think it is unlikely John is Jacob, and it would be more exciting for Jacob to be someone new.

Re: Annie as Rosseau

I think the idea that Annie might be Rosseau is not really supported. I think the problem is that there is so much about Rosseau that is unexplained that people are creating stuff. The producers have promised us some flashbacks showing Danielle, which will resolve this issue in about 8 months ;-)

@Radzinsky, your theory is thought out, but while consistent, it is the much more complicated version interpretting events that requires a lot of invention on your part.

Rosseau's reaction to the barracks was one of guarded surprise. Of course after that she went off to get dynamite. Her reaction when she actually saw her daughter - not approaching her, but obviously emotionally moved - was hard for me to fathom. She explained it well enough, but it was still strange.

A couple of points:
-The Frenchification of names is a stretch. If someone introduced themselves as Ben, I cannot imagine starting to call them Brennen. If that is the case, any name could be anyone elses name; and it only means you cannot use names to figure out who people are. So if the writers are truly calling people by different but similar names, then you cannot use names to prove a point. (John and Jack could be the same person too, one the time travelling version of the other. Although we have seen them in a room together, it would explain why Jack and John don't get along so well since they both have a little self loathing.)
-I think her reaction to Ben was simply a good judge of character. She is mini-Sayid when it comes to torturing and seeing the truth.

There are some strange surprises in backstory of Danielle, but I do not think it will be that she was Annie. I think it would be interesting to find out who funded her scientific expedition and what they brought to the island. Was her ship the source of guns and gas that the Others used to Purge Dharma?

[JackedupLockedown]

@ chris in oly and Radzinsky

Chris you said it perfect. It's not that it's impossible that Annie is Danielle etc, it's that it involves making to many assumptions. If it is the correct theory then it's ten steps ahead and kudos but with the information I have at this point it think it's more likely that Annie and Ben's situation is one that is already resolved for better or worse.

[jg]

Subject: Annie = Rousseau
As much as I respect those backing the A = R theory, I find the accent problem TOO much of a hurdle.

[jg]

Subject: Annie = Rousseau
As much as I respect those backing the A = R theory, I find the accent problem TOO much of a hurdle.

[Darthnexus78]

Hey jg we heard you the first time ok?

[jg]

this thing posts (unkown to me) then asks me to enter a code so i can post...ergo, 2 posts. its embarrassing

[Darthnexus78]

Portland...Sydney... can someone please try to find the names of states,countries ect.. that have been mentioned in Lost. Because this could be a critical key in finding where the losties location is.
If you want to know a theory of mine here it is.
The plane crashed because it was in the Bermuda Triangle (Things like boats,and PLANE crash their) now the teory of this is that the magnetic pull is somwhat of a mutation their. causing magnetic objects planes boats ect. to be draw and crash into a specific loctaion on the globe. Example it has been concluded that the famous pilate Amelia Earhart disapeared while flying over the Atlantic she had a co-pilate with her. anyway back to my theory. flight 815 has been sucked into the Bermuda Triangle and they are stuck on the island that is at it's strongest magnetic centre. the Dharma initiove may have been working their and created ol' smokey due to genetic experiments (explaining the weird noises in the jungle in the pilate episode)
What i would really like to know is what type of gas did ben use to kill his father?
*also here is some cool number facts i found

4+8+15+16+23+42= 108 (the number it reverted to each time it was reset)

Ps. Has anyone ever seen "American Dreamz"? awsome movie.

I would like to remind anyone who has an active acount on runescape to please tell my your usernames ok?

[Mark B]

@Radz : Thanks for the props. If it turns out to be true I'll take the credit 8-)

@The Old Guys .... where are you ?

@Evreryone else
From wikipedia …… the Soviet Army invaded Afghanistan on December 25 1979. The final troop withdrawl began on 15th May 1988 and ended on 15th February 1989.

So assuming Mikhail is telling the truth about being in the Soviet Army in Afghanistan he could have also been in Dharma before the Purge in fact I think it is likely that he was and we saved from the Purge because he lived in the Flame station so was not in the barracks. He is a reluctant member of the 'Others' just as he said in his description of how he survived the Purge. This would explain why Ben is a bit nervous about visiting the Flame as well as why Mikhail still dresses in the Dharma suits. But he could just be a new recruit like Juliet.
My pet theory for a while now has been that all the Others that are not technological are the 'hostiles'. Ben, Mikhail, Goodwin, Ethan and Juliet are Dharma or post-purge recruits.

One of the remaining Dharmas must know how to operate the sub and get people onto the island -- I thought this may be Mikhail. I'm still confused about the whole off island front that the Others had. I assumed this was run by Widmore. Did anyone come up with an idea about that ? Clearly the hostles have kept getting new people an have gotten more supplies but who sends them and why ?

Also, having watched that video of the crash I wonder if, given the whole Mikhail being resurected is Kelvin still alive ? I mean he only got a nasty whack on the head, it wasn't like his ears spurted blood or anything like that. I think he's dead though or we'd have seen him by now.

Flashbacks I'd like to see in Season 4 in no particular order ….
Mikhail
Rousseau (I heard we're getting one)
Ben (post meeting Alpert, pre-killing Dad)
Ben (post-killing Dad, pre-815 crash)
Tom (hostile, Dharma or recruit ?)
Jacob (that'll never happen in S4)
Alex
Richard Alpert
Naomi (trip to island, not that she hated her Dad)

[Cordell C]

Darth: I think the triangle is too far off target, they pilot would've noticed that the plane was flying over land and attempted to land.

Ps. I saw another TV show preview trying to play off a flight from Sydney to L.A.... total rip-off!

[Radzinsky]

@ jg, chris in oly, jackie

Alright, I've said my piece. You guys beat me down and beat me down -- there's only so much an amateur Lost blogger can take. :) You do realize, of course, that if Annie is NOT Rousseau, and Rousseau is Alex's biological mother, that Ben is likely NOT the biological father and he "acquired" Alex somehow. At some point that will have to be explained. Anyway, I thought this was a nice theory, but I'll abandon it for now.

I'm sticking my by idea that Ben has to die in order to save Sun's pregnancy and her life, though...

[Radzinsky]

But wait!!!

Annie Rousseau is a real person! She is a Personal Life Coach and Workshop Facilitator! With a webpage! No joke... check it out.

http://www.cortesisland.com/cgi-bin/tideline/show_bizsponsor.cgi?ID=180

COULD THIS BE OUR ROUSSEAU??? I'm like the Fox News Channel... I report, you decide.

~Radzinsky

[Tahir]

@ jamie

The idea of re-watching season 1 and doing podcasts about it is a great idea imo.As far as I know there are no fan podcasts about season 1.

There is another podcaster who is gonna do season 1 podcasts and I'll definately listen.I'll be an interesting listen considering what we know now.

Since Lostcasts is THE best Lost podcast it would be great if our dudes did the same - maybe take 2 episodes at a time.

8 months of no Lost is a long time so this maybe an idea.

[jg]

@ Radz...,
Ok, I've decided. I found her picture and Vancouver Island is not too far from Portland OR and its full of Hippies, like DHARMA people. I bet they still recruit from there.
Picture:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.processarts.com/media/New%2520Selections/AnnieR.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.processarts.com/pages/teachers/teachers.html&h=302&w=216&sz=68&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=RDvoP__FXUsNiM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=83&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAnnie%2BRousseau%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

[my-2-cents]

`

LOCKE's PEOPLE VS. JACK's PEOPLE BY BEN'S DESIGN?

Pretty good theory:
http://www.thetailsection.com/lost-spoilers/the-best-laid-plans-my-finale.php

Consistent with Yahoo TV's
finale description (SPOILERY):
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/1749

Doc Waxman

.

[my-2-cents]

`

**************************
SPOILERS / SPECULATION
**************************

HERC's Latest Spoilers from
AICN for the next 2 episodes:
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/32639

(Endorsed by DarkUFO as consistent with insider info he's seen).

Based on Herc's insights above,
these 2 theories now carry more weight:

Herc/AICN: "There’s a big surprise involving Naomi and Penelope."
Buddy TV: "NEW. Naomi is part of a Dharma hit squad."
http://forums.buddytv.com/lost-spoilers/5294-new-season-3-spoilers.html

Herc/AICN: "We will learn something huge about Kate."
TYCO Times: "Annie was, in fact, Lost's very own beloved Kate."
http://www.freewebs.com/tyco815/
(A lot of other hacks like me have also said Annie = Kate.
This guy's theories are always particularly weak,
which would make this even more bizarre if true.)

*********************
END OF SPOILERS
*********************

Doc Waxman

.

[Sobaika]

RE: Off Season

I like the idea of doing S1 podcasts, but definetely not all of them, only some of the notable ones - Pilot, Walkabout, Solitary, Numbers, Finale, etc.

RE: Annie=Rousseau and Annie=Kate

I don't buy it simply because there is NO reason to believe so. Until there is further evidence (which doesn't have to be a lot, just knowing Christian had a daughter in Australia was enough for us to connect Jack and Claire) I am content believing Annie is Ben's childhood sweetheart who may or may not have survived the purge.

[Jamie ©1955]

I could see Annie being little Kate but it's a stretch. The phsyical casting is right but the age seems really wrong.

Kate (to me) feels like she's 10 years younger than Ben.

Also, if Kate is Annie, obviously Annie wasn't that familiar with the islands as she didn't seem to know there was a second one.

BUT I think it's an easier set of story problems to solve than trying to make Rousseau = Annie.

[Lorne]

I tried to read the entire page, and probably missed this point, but it's interesting with all the "one of us" and "one of them" themes, that Ben is actually an outsider as leader. This reflects on Bai Ling's prophecy for Jack.
It also means that any one of the Losties could actually become the leader of the Others.

I liked the vessel for Jacob talk, and my thoughts went to Jacob's list vs the people Ben took from the Losties, and how they differed.

[Jamie ©1955]

New Kate/Ben/Annie theory?

Is there a chance that Kate is Annie and Ben's daughter? And because of the birth mortality problem Ben sent Annie away?

Naw...we've met Kate's mom and 'real' dad..never mind, that would take too much script crafting to make work.

It's just I noticed that the actors that play Kate and Ben are old enough to be Father daughter in real life.

Never mind, back to coffee...

[chris in oly]

@Radinsky

You may yet be right on Annie Rosseau. (I like the link to the personal life coach - hopefully she helps people resolve their father issues without killing their fathers, as seems to be the way of Lost.) I am sticking to the theory that Richard Alpert has the 'Eyeliner of Longevity' and that is how he stayed alive so long.

You are correct that it if Danielle and Annie are not the same person, this means Ben is not Alex's bio-dad, and for 4 years Alex is not raised by Ben - from 1988 (when Rosseau started her message) to 1992 (when we think the purge occurred). During that time Ben was still a workman for Dharma, so she would have had to have been raise for those years by someone else.

As for Annie her possibilities:
-Ben kills her in the purge (another unhealthy relationship on the show)
-Ben gets her to leave the island before the purge
-Or she joins the others and has a childbirth issue. Compounding Ben's obsession with Juliet's medical research.

I like the idea that she is waiting in the real world, a creepy parallel to Desmond and Penelope. But I would expect she joined the Others and had childbirth issues.

[my-2-cents]

`

ABC Announces Fall Schedule.
LOST back in 2008 at 8 or 9 p.m.

[Variety]:

"For midseason, as expected 'Lost' will return, as its fourth season runs uninterrupted.
[ABC President] McPherson said the show will likely return on Wednesday,
but in either the 8 p.m. or 9 p.m. slot."

"Private Practice," the "Grey's Anatomy" spinoff [...] will air in the tentpole 9 p.m. position."

New show "Dirty Sexy Money" in 10pm slot.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117964935.html?categoryid=14&cs=1

**************************

[Kristen]:

Lost is not on the fall schedule. And this is a good thing! In its place at 10 pm on Wednesdays, we will get a show to which I'm already freakishly addicted: Dirty Sexy Money , starring Peter Krause as a lawyer to a hilarious, Hiltonesque family. And Lost will come back midseason to run back-to-back episodes. McPherson says, "I like the Lost model. I like being able to run it straight through." And the best news for us early risers? McPherson says Lost is "better off as an 8 or 9 pm show." He also plans to keep it on Wednesday night.

http://www.eonline.com/gossip/kristin/detail/index.jsp?uuid=036a8261-5066-476d-a227-d679a846c45e

**************************

Doc Waxman

.

`

HOT TOPIC!
As the late great Linda Richman would say:

"I'm feeling a little verklempt!
Discuss among yourselves.
Here, I'll give you a topic:"

Are ALL spoilers just part a slippery slope that ruins a show?
Or is righteous indignation justified when ANYONE is spoiled?
"Discuss...Discuss."

http://www.thetailsection.com/lost-spoilers/one-rotten-apple.php#more

"Oh, that Doc Arzt! Like Butter!"

Doc Waxman

.

[chris in oly]

@ Doc Waxman - spoiled

I have found I enjoy the episodes better when I do not read spoilers. I cannot resist watching the 'next week on Lost' commercials after the show, but do not read the TV Guide explanation for the next week episode. Someone posted the TV guide story above, and I was a little saddened I had read it - since it really spells out what is going to happen. (I am not upset at the person for posting it, please don't get me wrong, but I do actively try to avoid that stff.)

I do skip the spoilers section in the LostCast and do not read any post with the terms 'spoilers' in it.

I love the wild speculation and trying to figure things out. But since I am so rarely correct it does not ruin anything for me ;-) It is not so bad if someone's partial guess turns out to be correct, but when you know what is going to happen the thrill is gone.

The best example was the Paulo and Niki Expose episode. I read a post about the spiders and paralyzation. So the whole episode became kinda boring - and it was not the best episode to begin with - knowing what was going to happen and how it was going to end.

I think that it is nice to warn people prior to posting a spoiler or major reveal. I can understand why people can get upset when the spoiler spoils the episode for them. I can also understand the thrill in getting spoilers and reading them.

But ultimately, it is only a TV show and getting s'righteously indignant' about anything is a little much.

[jonathan]

just to let you all know, the summary of the next two episodes is up at darkufo's spoiler site. i was very temtped to but did not read them. read at your own risk.

[Mr SideStep]

I like spoilers, as I am usually past number four from the wednesday night Lost sixer by the time the show starts.

[JackedupLockedown]

To the victor etc.

I try to aviod spoilers but sometimes I just am too anxious and give in. The show is much more enjoyable spoiler free. The biggest problem I run into is stumbling across spoilers on accident when reading theories or researching past episodes and themes.

Today seems like the calm before the penultimate storm...

Jackie

[Darthnexus78]

WWW.Runescape Current memebers PLEASE tell me!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S to you guys have real lives? Or do you just sit tip a tip taping on the computer all day???

[Darthnexus78]

4815162342
2432615184
The Da Vinci code fibluci code??? huh? huh!? Maybe...
48 151 623 42...
IT KILLS THE SUSPENCE IS KILLING ME WHAT IS THE SECRET OF LOST????

[Darthnexus78]

L ocke
O ?
S awyer
T om

Please send your thoughts about LOST acrostic poemsat the begining of your podcast please put re: Darth-N
Ty -Darthnexus78

[ebonX]

Finally ... Caught up with all the posts (~500 over the last week)!! Great discussion on the threads and a great podcast.

Re: Purge - '88 or '92

I gotta go with 1988 as the date of the Purge ... I would take the watch (as a production error) over Alex's age (based on subsequent events & speculation).

Re: Annie = Danielle

I am mostly in agreement with Radz on this one ... Here is my take on Radz's theory ...

The Purge happens (Ben & Natives, working as DHARMA folk, lead a revolution to overthrow DHARMA on-Island) ... Danielle is a member of DHARMA and sends out an Island-wide warning signal (via radio transmission at the Black Rock). The Others (Ben, ex-DHARMA, & Natives left) capture Danielle, brand her & exile her, but not before taking her baby (Alex).

Now, my speculation is that the Island's "No Baby" policy is a result of Ben becoming the Island's avatar post-Purge. It is during this time (late-80s) that I think Ben & Annie get preggo ... Annie dies during pregnancy & Alex is given to Ben to raise as his own (as she is the last baby to be conceived/born on-Island).

Re: Who is Jacob?

I agree with whoever's idea that Jacob appears as whoever you are emotionally thinking about at the time (Jack's dad, Kate's horse, and Eko's brother) ... If this idea is to be supported, it would also lead to the speculation that all those "dead people" seen by our Losties is Jacob trying to communicate with people in a cry for HELP!!!

Crazy Theory: Dune Messiah Theory

If anyone has ever read Herbert's Dune Novels, then you know about the Bene Gesserit ... In the Dune Novels, the Bene Gesserit are an ancient religious sect in the Dune universe. In the first novel, it is revealed when they arrived on Arrakis (Dune ... Desert Planet!! ... ;D), they integrated into the local religion and planted some 'seeds' for the future into the Fremen religious mythology ... The one that is used in the first book is the idea of an off-world messiah.

What if Magnus Hanso set-up a similar 'religious seed' with the Island Natives (back in the 18th-century/Black Rock timeframe)? This would be the ultimate long con ... Hanso introduced the idea of an off-world Messiah who would save them during some perilous future event. This was the 'trick' that the DHARMA Initiative used when they first came to the Island, but after sometime they were proven to the Natives to be false Messiahs, leading to conflict (and ending with the Purge). Ben is the current 'believed' Messiah and the Others are still trying to determine if Locke is the 'real' Messiah or not.

Re: Summer Stuff

I think we should use the Wiki to progress theories over the summer ... That way different subjects can be given their own page. This will make things easier for all posters than combing thru hundreds of posts.

Whoever wants to take the initiative, email me subjects you would like to discuss and I will create the Wiki pages ...

Ideas: Island - Reality or Multiverse, Island Timeline, ...

Subj: Doc Jensen EW article

Here is Doc Jensen's theory speculation ... Long, but a great read ...

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20038700,00.html

Subj: S4 Speculation

My belief on who is gonna die (This is pure speculation, based on past episodes only, thus SPOILER-FREE!!) ...

Juliet - Gonna die trying to help our Losties
Ben - Locke is gonna be the Others' leader in S4
Charlie - 'Bout Time!!!

Sorry for such a long post ... Stay LOST!

[ebonX]

A couple other random thoughts ...

Subj: Naomi's Arrival

Did Naomi's description of how she first saw the Island remind anyone of Peter Pan (flying to Nevermind), "... when suddenly the clouds cleared and I saw land." I think it is no more than another literary nod, but still amusing none the less.

[chris in oly]

Season Finale Speculation:

Season 1 ended with Walt being kidnapped by Others.

Season 2 ended with Kate, Sawyer, Jack and Hurley kidnapped by Others.

Who will end up being kidnapped and by whom?

Will the Losties kidnap Others this time around? Or will the Others run off with all the women?

[Steve G]

Darth: Please post a warning when you include spoilers in your post. Lots of folks here don't want to know anything about upcoming episodes--even just what's shown in the previews for the following week.

[JackedupLockedown]

To anyone who thinks the purge happened before 1992.

YOU ARE WRONG

There is no need for discussion. The year was either 1992 or 1993 and that is that.

*************************
POSSIBLE SPOILER WARNING
*************************
As confirmed by the producers of the show after the "Enter 77" episode Mikhail came to Island after his military unit was decommissioned and he was released from the Soviet Army in the early 1990's. Also confirmed is that Bakunin did witness the purge. So there is undeniable proof that 1988 or any other year before 1992 is not a possible year for the purge.

Silly things that add to the proof:

Bakunin answered the newspaper ad to "save the world" at the age of 24. He expressed great admiration for Nadia Comeneci who he shares a birthday with (November 12th). The Russian gymnast by "coincidence" In 1967, joined a newly formed gym club called The Flame.

Based on these facts it is easy to assume that '67 would be the birth year for Bakunin which would mean it was after 11-12-91 and before 11-12-92 when Mikhail answered the ad. Which would be just in time for a December 22nd 1992 purge.

These facts in conjunction with Kelvin Inman arriving after the gulf war but being a Dharma member and Ben's Timex watch which was specifically brought to our attention in the episode for no other foreseeable reason are more then enough evidence for any rational thinking person to draw the only plausible solution.

As far as the Rousseau and Alex angle...remember that there are apprx 15 years unacounted for between Ben's meeting with Jungle Alpert and the Purge very likely that Alex could have been kidnapped by the Others and raised in the jungle. Also keep in mind that the fact Mikhail was recruited by a great man (Jacob) and was never a member of the Dharma Initaitive along with the blast door map suggesting an abandonment of the Medical station in 1985 suggests that the Others had already began to usurp control of and isolate the Dharma Initaitive prior to Danielles presumed arrivial in 1988.

So please STOP suggesting 1988 as an option it only makes things more confusing and we know the Razor does not like that.

Sorry had to get that out of my system...

Jackie

[Jamie ©1955]

So let me get this straight, Jackie.

The purge didn't happen before 1992? ;)

[Mark B]

@Jackie,

Mikhail is a liar. Either he was bought to the island by Jacob or he witnessed the Purge, one or the other, not both. Unless Jacob was bringing people earlier than the purge. Which I think not.

I don't think Mikhail can be born in 1967 though -- he'd only be 37 and the actor was born in 1955. That said If he was born in '67 he'd have been 24 in 1991 -- 2 years after the end of the Afghan war -- so the numbers add up.

Also isn't the 1988 purge date is based solely on Sayids guess that the transmission lasted 30 seconds for one iteration ? If this is wrong and it lasted 25 seconds the transmisson was changed 13 years ago or around 1991. Has anyone actually timed it ? Do we ever hear the entire transmission in one go ?

KIND OF SPOLIER WARNING SPECULATION .....
If Charlie dies does Des stop seeing the future ?

[JackedupLockedown]

@ Mark B

I don't know if you listen to the OLP but they said every word of Mikhails story was true except for the part about being a member of Dharma. It was not like they suggested it either. They said FOR SURE.

So maybe he was not recruited by Jacob, but he was recruited by a great man and did witness the purge and that is not up for debate.

There is so little confirmed information please do not make me lose what little is left of my mind by calling it into the question.

Jackie

[Mark B]

@Jackie

And the OLP said they'd never do time travel either ... but hey I'm with you, the purge was 1992.

But if he was not in Dharma how did he get to the island to witness the purge ? Mmmmm.

[JackedupLockedown]

@ Mark B

Have they time traveled?

RE: Mikhail coming to the Island
My Opinion, no real facts here...
Mikhail joined the others under the guise of joining Dharma. The other Dharma Members who joined the Hostiles for the purge likely included some of the people who recruited for Dharma. They've brought in Juliet, Mikhail, perhaps Ethan (their surgeon)and Tom (if he's not a native, doesn't strike me as one) and possibly others.

I would think the purge was an extremely premeditated event. I have little doubt the hostiles and their Dharma defectors took great care to be certain that things appaered to be running as usual on the Island. I would also think it was sometime before the purge that Mittelos became involved as the new mainland funding for the Others.

and so the story goes...

[Mark B]

@Jackie

Des time travelled. Lindeloff said in an OLP that they "stepped outside the box a little with that one", or words to that effect. I took this to mean Des travelled back in time but essentialy ended up in the same time and place.

So .. Mikhail was technically part of Dharma but joined as an rebel for the hositle supporting members of Dharma. Interesting theory. Seems initially plausable but somewhat more complex than needed -- why would Mikhail apply for a job with Dharma if he didn't agree with their philosophy. As said before a simple 'razor-approved' model would be for Mikhail to be lying and he never saw the pyrge or failing that was in Dharma (and so the OLP is lying). A Mikhail flashback is required.

[Mark B]

@Jackie

Hang on ...... what if Mikhail crashed on the island ?

That way he'd not be part of Dharma (he could have lived with either Dharma or the hostiles), he'd be able to witness the purge and he could have been bought there by Jacob. He could even be part of Rousseaus team.

Feasible ?

[JackedupLockedown]

I still don't think you can discredit the OLP...I don't think Desmond traveled in time, physically he never left the Island. And I don't know exactly what was said in regards to time travel as I did not make a note of it in any of my OLP summaries. By my records the OLP is the one constantly accurate source.

For these reasons I think any theory that suggest Mikhail was not a witness to the purge or that he was a true member of Dharma are flawed and unnessacary. So Sayeth the Razor.

I don't believe Mikhail ever thought he was appling for Dharma, I just think he was instructed to act as if he was when he arrived to keep up the front leading into the purge. His predisposition to disliking Dharma would only make this more likely in my mind.

[JackedupLockedown]

I didn't see one in our thread and just in case here is a transcript of the whispers while Ben meets his mother at the fence.

Center
1 Your hope is here (12 sec)
2. there ain’t no turning around (12.2 sec)
3. sounds like “turn to that screen” (12.3 sec)
4. Don’t forget him (13 sec)
5. Is anyone awake (15 sec)
6. We should take him (16 sec)
Little Ben: Mom (20 sec)

Right channel
1. What’s happening
2. If we go over there we might be able to see him but I don’t know (12 sec) man’s voice
3. Did you hear about him (13 sec)
4. Is anyone on (15 sec) girl’s voice

Left
1. sounds like “disobeys you” (11 sec)
2. because the moment’s bad/rare (13 sec) girl’s voice
3. that’s what I mean (14 sec) girl’s voice
4. It’s heavy (15 sec)
5. don’t worry (16 sec)
6. sounds like “I looked through them (16.2 sec)

Anybody find a transcript for the whispers in the jungle with Ben and Richard Alpert?

That's all for me tonight, it's my bedtime

Jackie

[Joop]

Happy Lost Day
Tonights episode is brought to you by Bubbies® Diapers.
'You are everybody'

(I predict Charlie will be granted a reprieve tonight, but will go in the finale.)

Joop©

[Cordell C]

@ Mark B:

I have believed for a long time that Rousseau and Mikhail were part of the same team. Feasible.

[Mark B]

@Jackie

About the time travel .. a cut and paste from the Lostpedia transcript of the Flashes podcast .... read into it what you like but the general 'feel' of it implies to me he actually time travelled.

Carlton Cuse: So talk about Dam- uh Desmond's flashback, Damon. I can't say Damon and Desmond in the same sentence so. Did he really go back, or is that still questionable? What are the implications of his vision? And will he be able to harness this power?

Damon Lindelof: Yeah, I guess it wasn't really quite a flashback in the, in the conventional sense of the way that we do flashbacks on the show, you know, the reality of it is, this is more the experience that he had when he turned the fail safe key and obviously as evidenced by certain future memories that he's having during his flashback. Uh, for the first time in the history of the show we actually allowed a character to have an opportunity to make a different choice than they make before and, uh, Desmond doesn't. He is, he's, he, he is, he is course corrected by, by a certain mysterious, uh, older lady in a ring shop. So uh, uh what, what was your question?

Carlton Cuse: No, that was fine, that was -
Damon Lindelof: Does that cover it?
Carlton Cuse: When it comes to an answer, that pretty much covers it. Well, we're - I suppose people want to know what does this mean?

Damon Lindelof: Was it really - did it really happen?
Carlton Cuse: Yeah did it really happen?
Damon Lindelof: Uh, yeah! I think it really happened. I mean -
Carlton Cuse: I think it did to.
Damon Lindelof: You know, one of the things that we've tried very rarely to do on the show is to, to play something as only having been imagined or dreamed. And you know, I'd, I would, I would say that in the global sense of things, that Desmond, back in, you know back in the, the year 1996, actually had that experience. Now, I would venture to guess that in future flashbacks of Desmond's, that they would be, treated as traditional flashbacks where he doesn't really have any awareness of his destiny, but in this particular instance, uh, we went outside the box a little.

Carlton Cuse: Right, I mean I think it's, uh, it's entirely possible he can have a traditional flashback story as well.

Damon Lindelof: Absolutely, but I think what's interesting is there are, there are certain things that happen the way that they used to happen, that he changed as a result of being in the past, that might sort of resonate over time, you know. Like getting hit in the face, instead of the bartender, or the fact that the photograph of he and Penny got take uh - got, got taken the day that he broke up with her. Maybe, maybe in a, in another incarnation there were two photographs, you know. Maybe they, maybe they've, maybe there was a two for.

[Darthnexus78]

Oops sorry 'bout not posting a spoiler alert on my post wasn't thinking...anyway good luck 2night guys

STAY LOST ON LOST!

[rok]

how hard is it to fathom that desmond went back in time via his flashback, self-contained within that encapsulated plot, BUT with the ability to change matters during that short time? it's not like the writer's can use that device often. unless someone digs up another fully-intact swan station.

oh, and my wife and i were re-watching the episode last night, and another little hint,hint from the writers about jacob was when ben said "he feels the same way about technology as you do" to locke. i really think that john's existence in the swan when it imploded had a similar screwball time-shifting experience for him.

which reminds me, has anyone re-visited locke's hot-house spirit-walk whatever with boone since that episode, to see if anything boone was telling him makes any more sense now? just curious.

[Radzinsky]

Happy Lost Day, everyone

A sad day for me as I buckled and read all the spoilers -- couldn't help it -- and now I'm wishing that they're all wrong to restore the surprise for me...

On to serious business:

@ Jackie & Mark B

RE: The New Whispers

Jack, do they sound like "thoughts" to you, as per our original thinking on this? I'm particularly interested in the "we should take him" and "is anyone on" comments. It still sounds to me like Ben is not exactly hearing something with his ears, but rather with his mind -- and it squares with the notion that he could "hear" these voices while held captive in the Swan hatch armory.

The "is anyone on" comment is curious... is this thought/whisper phenomenon like a network? Some sort of communications system? Is there a chance it's DharmaNet? Probably not, but still an interesting comment.

RE: The Date of the Distress Call

Mark, I think we can rely on 16 years as an accurate figure. Sayid's estimate while listening to the message was rough, to be sure, but there is confirmation in the sneak peek from this week's episode -- Rousseau herself says that the message has been broadcasting for 16 years. So I think we can safely assume that the distress call was recorded in 1988.

RE: 1988/1992 Purge

I don't want to start a furor over this, Jackie, but a had a thought last night about the date of the Purge. This isn't to take away from the considerable evidence you've lined up behind your 1992 position. I only have one question/observation for you.

If the Purge happened in 1992, and Rousseau sent her distress call in 1988, how can you reconcile the 4 years that she would have spent wandering around the Island?

Let me put it differently. Under your 1992 theory, Rousseau gets to the Island sometime before 1988, something bad happens to her that is NOT the Purge, but it is so bad that she sends a distress call. Rousseau proceeds to live for the next 16 years in the jungle, no one responds to her distress call and the distress call continues to repeat over and over again, unabated.

If the Purge indeed did not happen until 1992, that leaves four years of OVERLAP between Rousseau and Dharma. Consider what has to happen during those four years for your 1992 theory to be correct:

(1) Rousseau goes to the Dharma radio tower that is broadcasting the Valenzetti numbers and changes it to her distress call in 1988.
(2) In the four years before the 1992 Purge, Dharma never notices that she changes the numbers-broadcast or doesn't care.
(3) In the four years before the 1992 Purge, Dharma never hears or reacts to her distress call.
(4) In the four years before the 1992 Purge, Dharma leaves Rousseau completely alone in the jungle.
(5) In four years before the 1992 Purge, Rousseau never stumbles across any Dharma personnel such that she could be rescued.
(6) Finally, during the 1992 Purge, Rousseau is somehow spared or completely unaffected.

I don't think these things make sense. I think the whole timeline is better explained if Rousseau sends her distress call AFTER the Purge has happened. To put it another way, I don't think that Rousseau CAN send her distress call before the Purge happened. The radio tower simply wouldn't have been available to her. Therefore, if the distress call went out in 1988, the Purge had to happen around or before then.

RE: Mikhail's Arrival on the Island

It's hard to know which parts of Mikhail's story are true and which parts are false. It's true that we can take him for his word that he witnessed the Purge. But I think there is something else in his history that would say otherwise.

Mikhail says that he was brought to the Island by Jacob, and he also says that he arrived by submarine. However, we know that the Others didn't even HAVE a submarine before the Purge. I think it's more reasonable to conclude that Ben recruited Mikhail to be his eyes and ears (explains Mikhail's loyalty to Ben in the last episode, and why the Others watched while Locke beat the snot out of him). Ben recruited Mikhail after the Purge, and brought him over in the submarine that the Others comandeered from Dharma.

* * * * *

Anyway, I hope these observations sound reasonable to you, Jackie. I'm just trying to put your theories through the ringer, to see if we can resolve any inconsistencies.

~Radzinsky

[chris in oly]

Re: Life and Times of Rosseau

Yeah, the four year gap between 1988 and 1992 for Rosseau is a big puzzle. But we know that when Ben was young there were skirmishes between Dharma and the hostile Others - when there was an attack on the compound. We also know Ben's dad complained that the roads were not safe. So we are not led to beleive that DHARMA ever had complete control over the island. It is reasonable to assume that a ship - even a large ship - could land at the island without DHARMA being able to do something or even knowing.

Rosseau said her team got sick and she had to kill them all, but I always got the feeling she was sick as well at that time. If you combine post partum depression with loosing her child and the depression over killing what I would expect was her husband and crew, it might have left her in a significant funk. Then, if we assume that each time she stuck her head out of her hiding place she saw DHARMA and the Others fighting to the death, I am not too surprised she stayed hidden. I would not want to walk up to either group, especially if I thought one of them had taken my child. While it is hard for me to truly understand it, it is not impossible. Rosseau seems pretty competent in the Jungle, and it does not seem implausible that she could stay out of the way of DHARMA and the Others. And she had no reason to trust any of the people she saw on the island.

Why DHARMA would have ignored the signal is unknown. But if I were being attacked by Others in the wilderness, it seems reasonable that DHARMA would assume it was a trap and wait until they had a victory to change it. If Rosseau could have just wandered up to the tower and change the message, then it is clear DHARMA no longer had control of the location.

Re: Only One Sub

We do not know there was never another sub. The Others were getting gas masks and deadly gas canisters from someone and somewhere. It is reasonable to assume that Alpert had been recruiting people for his entire life - which could be a long time. Given that DHARMA stuff keeps getting sent to the island, it does seem reasonable to assume the others have contacts in the real world that are not limited to DHARMA. The ability to get detailed files on people is indicative of either a small rich organization that can hire people to do the work, or an extensive secret society that can get the information.

Re: Mikhail and Jacob
It is possible that before the purge Jacob had more power/access to the outside world. It seemed to me that the ring of dust around the hut and the dust in the chair Jacob was sitting on, was to trap him. It seems to me that Ben manipulated and trapped Jacob so he could not longer contact people, and they would have to go through him. He finds what people wants and twists it, the Others want Jacob so he controls it.

Re: Purging in Just One Day
While the largest example of the purge appears to have occured in 1992 when the DHARMA group was gassed en-mass, it is clear that DHARMA was loosing what contol they had over the island pretty rapidly previously. It is reasonable to assume they had lost control of different locations, such as the radio signal, prior to 1992.

[Radzinsky]

@ chris in oly

Let's go back to ol' Occam for a moment, Chris.

Doesn't it seem more likely than not that if Rousseau was trapped on an Island for four years while Dharma was up and running, that Dharma would find her, or that she would run into Dharma?

Doesn't it seem more likely than not that Rousseau could only get up and change the Dharma Valenzetti message from the radio tower if the Dharma personnel were already dead?

Doesn't it seem more likely than not that if Rousseau broadcast a message for four years *begging* to be rescued, and telling everyone that she'd be waiting at the Black Rock, that someone from the scientific community on the Island would come looking for her?

Doesn't it seem more likely than not that if Rousseau changed the Valenzetti numbers broadcast -- the whole REASON that the Dharma Initiative was on the Island in the first place -- that over the course of four years, if Dharma was still up and running, they'd get back up to their radio tower and change the broadcast back to the numbers?

I think the reason that all these questions are tough to answer is that by the time Rousseau broadcast her distress call, the Purge had already happened. We can disagree about where Occam's Razor would come out on this, but I think this is a pretty simple explanation.

~Radzinsky

[frankmorris]

@ Rok

I've been pondering what Boone meant (in Locke's vision) when he claimed that Desmond was 'helping himself'. Will that 'prophesy' come into play? & does Locke share some of Desmond's ability given his proximity to the implosion?

[Mark B]

@Radz -- remember the mantra "I will not be spoiled". We should set up an AA style phone line you can call for help in times of stress and need for spoilers.

Re 1988 or 1992
Both have positives and one big negative ....

The major gotcha for Team 88 is that Bens watch was made in 1992. This could be a production error but why go to the trouble of finding an old watch and then get one that is 4 years too new ? Why not get a nice old pocket watch or clearly 1970's watch ? If it is a prod. error then I expect it to be dealt with in the OLP. They have covered many obvious ones before. Given the level of conversation it's causing here I imagine it's doing the same on the other boards. If this does turn out to be a production error then I think the 1992 Purge theory is pretty much gone as the other issues are easily dealt with.

Those other potential issue for Team 88 are;
1. The Afghan war ended in 1988 but troops were still being sent home until 1989. Mikhail was in the army until the end of the war -- I think he said he was -- I also seem to recall him mentioning the end of the Cold War and how it was the end of his country. The Cold War officially ended in Dec. 1991 when the USSR broke up but effectively it was over maybe a year or two at most before that but still after 1988. It would be impossible for Mikhail to be part of these events if he'd been on the island.

2. As mentioned earlier Mikhail claims to have been bought to the island by Jacob and came by sub and witnessed the purge. This is impossible. He's lying about at least one of these.

3. He can't be a hostile as he has a clear Russian accent.

4. We are largely led by the OLP in that they said everything Mikhail said is true except him being part of Dharma. I suspect he crashed on the island prior to the purge, probably got taken in by Dharma, survived as he was in the Flame and Ben has over time convinced him that he was bought there by Jacob. Locke could have been taken down the same road very easily. Remember Mikhail is a man who's country had just fallen apart. He would be looking for something to believe in. This does not explain the fact that he came on the Dharma sub though, this maybe the part he is lying about. Clearly Mikhail is lying or TPTB have screwed up somewhere.

Major problem for Team 92 is the Rousseau distress call being set-up 16 years ago or in 1988 (ish). In the sneak peek for tonight SPOILER WARNING (I've not seen) Radz says Rousseau says it's been running for 16 years. But she was told that by Sayid in "Solitary" and she replied something like "Has it really been that long ?" I don’t think she is a reliable source for length of time she's been on the island at all. I bet she's not been keeping a diary and couldn't tell you to the nearest quarter how long she'd been there. If Sayid is wrong then all of Radz points are invalid because they rely on Sayids timings.

Under the 1992 theory I do not have to reconcile the 4 years as Rousseau arrives IN 1992 or perhaps just before. She stumbles into the situation. Perhaps her crew get sick because of the gas -- not sure how that would happen or they did get sick and she had to kill them. The numbers are changed to a distress call in 1992 -- again maybe before or after the Purge. The Hostiles don't care about it, they know it doesn't get off the island, Dharma are too busy fighting the hostiles. Post purge, the hostiles find her (or she finds them) she gives birth to Alex and they steal Alex and leave Rousseau.

I think we need to remember this is a tv programme and the 'collective' are probably spending too much time analysing all this -- way more then TPTB every thought people would.

[Radzinsky]

@ Mark B

"I think we need to remember this is a tv programme and the 'collective' are probably spending too much time analysing all this -- way more then TPTB every thought people would."

Very good point.

But what is the point of this board, if not to do precisely that? ;)

[chris in oly]

@Rad

"Doesn't it seem more likely than not that if Rousseau was trapped on an Island for four years while Dharma was up and running, that Dharma would find her, or that she would run into Dharma?"

It depends by what you mean up and running. DHARMA had control of portions of the island and these portions appeared to have regular gun battles with Others. Of course she had contact with DHARMA when she made her way to the radio tower to broadcast the signal. Just like the Losties ran into the DHARMA remains on the island.

"Doesn't it seem more likely than not that Rousseau could only get up and change the Dharma Valenzetti message from the radio tower if the Dharma personnel were already dead?"

Only the DHARMA personnel at the radio station had to be dead. It is not as if DHARMA was in complete control of the island until the purge, but it is resonable to assume they lost control of locations on the fringes. I would really have to look at a map, but my feeble brain seems to remember the radio signal was far away from both DHARMA town (in the sonic fence) and the swan hatch.

"Doesn't it seem more likely than not that if Rousseau broadcast a message for four years *begging* to be rescued, and telling everyone that she'd be waiting at the Black Rock, that someone from the scientific community on the Island would come looking for her?"

Only if the DHARMA folks thought it would be safe to do so. DHARMA people were not very nice or kind to strangers from what we have seen. They had a very militant quasi eastern philosophy. If DHARMA thought it was the Others luring them into a trap, then no they would not go rescue her.

"Doesn't it seem more likely than not that if Rousseau changed the Valenzetti numbers broadcast -- the whole REASON that the Dharma Initiative was on the Island in the first place -- that over the course of four years, if Dharma was still up and running, they'd get back up to their radio tower and change the broadcast back to the numbers?"

I did not play the Lost Experience, so I cannot speak to whether that was the only reason they were on the island. There were multiple projects as far as the show has displayed, and I kinda think the Swan Hatch was the most important based upon the show, not the Lost Experience, since the show has never mentioned the equation. If one of the multiple projects was overrun by the Others, and it was not safe to get it back in order, then no they would not have done so.

The Purge was the end of the conflict not the begining. In 1992 DHARMA finally ended, from a conflict that was in serious combat when Ben was a kid. Due to the age of Ben this is mid-80's (the waxman films seem to indicate this around 1987 at least). So a serious effort by the Others to get rid of DHARMA takes from, lets say 1985 to 1992. Per your argument DHARMA loses no stations, equipment, or people until 1992 when they go from complete control of the island (such that they could find one woman in the jungle) to nothing. I find that less plausible, then starting around 1985 DHARMA lost more and more control of the few portions of the island they controlled, until in 1992 they are only in a few remaining station and the town, where the purge finishes the war. DHARMA could not find the others and wipe them out in the 80's, so how could they be expected to find Rosseau?

The Annie = Rosseau is possible, and her being DHARMA could explain how she got to the station and broadcast the message. But still, the rest of DHARMA would have changed it back even if Annie had changed the message. So regardless of whether Annie as a DHARMA person left the message or Rosseau as an independent left the message, DHARMA had lost control of the radio signal. And the Others did not care what was being broadcast.

[my-2-cents]

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