Get Ready: LOSTCasts 74

We got another great episode of LOST last night, with the airing of season 5, episode 7, The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham. Join us this weekend for another podcast, and get involved by posting your comments here, sending us an email, or calling our automated audio comment voicemail at: 206-984-3516...

Comments

[Gizzm]

man, Ben is a horrible S.O.B.

[Memnoch]

Very cool episode, if just for the twist. I thought they could have done more with Locke's attempts to persuade people, but the on-island scenes and the end made up for it.

Unlike many of the reviews I read, I don't think it was better than 316 in terms of coolness / action. But this episode did a good job of filling in gaps and had excellent acting.

[frankmorris]

Abbadon reminded me of someone else who helps people get where they need to go... Libby.

[dglo]

The final scenes of Ben could be a setup for an eventual reveal that Ben really is a good guy. He does what needs to be done, then goes through the boring details of tidying up in order to make sure there are no loose ends.

[Memnoch]

I'm not sure I believe Ben knew that John needed to die. I am actually quite confused on Ben's motivations.

First Ben leaves the island on purpose. Why not trick Locke into moving the island, if Ben wanted to stay?

Then Ben convinces John not to kill himself. For no apparent reason. Ben didn't know John had knowledge of Ms. Hawking or Jin. And it was Hawking that told Ben to get the 6 back together to go to the island after Locke was dead.

Why would Ben leave the island, knowing it would be difficult/impossible to come back, try to convince Locke to go back, and then kill Locke, and bring Locke back to the island???

[riverfr0zen]

Well, dglo, he does express his feelings of sadness after killing Locke ("I'm going to miss you John...").

However, you could also interpret that as an indication that he is truly quite psychotic :)

[Mike in the Box]

I don't know if anyone has said/thought this, but I believe that the original LOSTies somehow "flashed" out of the plane and entered the island circa 1960, while the other passengers of Ajira 316 crashed on the island circa 2008-9

[Drederick_Tatum]

"Then Ben convinces John not to kill himself. For no apparent reason. Ben didn't know John had knowledge of Ms. Hawking or Jin. And it was Hawking that told Ben to get the 6 back together to go to the island after Locke was dead."

@Memnoch- I don't think Ben knew any of the information John gave him. Ben is a manipulator, a proven liar, and now a murderer. Once Ben got what he needed he killed John. Now he can be the percieved good guy reuniting the "Oceanic 6" with all the info John gave him.

[riverfr0zen]

@Mike in the Box: Yeah, that's what it's looking like. But check this out: If the 'flashes' are what caused Ajira 316 to crash (sometime near the 'present'), what if it was similar flashes that caused Oceanic 815 to crash in the first place?

That is, maybe there were some people on Oceanic 815 who were also trying to get back to the Island, causing that first plane to crash.

[Tahir]

Season 3 - The Others were building a runway.It that where Lapedus put his plane down ? The plane looked very intact to me.

I like the meeting John had with Widmore.For the first time Widmore came across as being sympathetic.But as Lost often does, we don't know how truthful he's being.
Locke the dupe once more ???

Its a shame Abadon is dead (?) - I like that actor.But he has a full-time gig on Fringe at the moment.

Dam good twist at the end.I wasn't expecting Ben to Kill Locke.

[Splotches]

Episode Reactions- The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham
(edited from a chat with DocArzt)

Nice proper new character intro scene (Caesar in the Hydra on Alcatraz Island)
Ilena is next and then they add Reiko Aylesworth soon.

So Locke has gone "Back To The Future", Jedi Style?

Crashed 316 Lying in the mud - I got the crash I was missing last week.
Other Other Locke Others?

Maybe D&C meant "the episode order makes more sense" because 316 wreckage scene comes after the 316 flash scene
(since the episodes 316/TLADOJB aired in reverse order)

Locke is the new Indiana Jones. Finally some tunisia, without Crystal Skulls
"Your parents had a sense of humor naming you".
Give him some McCutcheon, Widmore, he's got more work to do.
At least Locke was not run over by a car.

Locke's travelogue scenes played out like an episode of Six Degrees! (his off Island meet-ups)

It's been way too long, but Walt got a great scene again.
With enough money and resources... Widmore gets Locke a driver to take him to anyone!
Abbadon works with Widmore. Tricked by Ben into island exile.

Widmore being called on his "Boatload of C4" and changing the subject was priceless.

"The camera is at the EXIT." so matter of fact, I chuckled
So the island is fixed opposite Tunisia because the hatch is still operational and holding the island?

Where is Sun? We know about the ring, so I guess that is her proxy.

Easily called Ben as the gunman. Now show him being served that beatdown!
Did he just provoke a beating to make himself authentically late to flight 316 as Hurley's proxy?

Can't wait till we know why Hurley came to the plane. A visit from Ghost Charlie? Sayid? (not Ben!)

Abbadon, Caesar & Sayid should get a spinoff action show and Kill The Economist.

Splot

[Mark B]

The one thing I don't get is why Ben talked Locke out of suicide just to kill him anyway. The only thing I can think is that he reacted to the news Jin was alive and the stuff about Mrs Hawking. Obviously Jin being alive meant Ben had an extra card to play on Sun to get her back but still no reason to kill Locke. I wonder if he had to kill Locke for some reason .... does killing someone else who turned the donkey wheel somehow allow you back onto the island.

More Walt please, but I fear we may have seen the last of him.

Like Caesar and initially I thought that him in the office was some kind of flashback.

So who canoed off with Lapidus ? Shouldn't be Sun cause she should have flashed away like the other memebers of the O6 (or 5 without Aaron).

Probably should watch the epi again, sure I missed stuff.

[4tehlulz]

Brix were shat.

[Justin - AKA John Locke Jnr]

Very shocking episode - best of the season so far!

I think Widmore is just as evil as ben, look at the way he snapped the neck of that chap in the 1950s and knock the crap out of that chap in the video. He's just as evil but a bit more civilized.

@4tehlulz I definitely think we'll get more Walt as team Darlton have said about this. Although I think Walt could be more Season 6 material.

I'm a bit pissed that Abadon is dead - because Fringe is rubbish (gave up on it!) I'm pretty sure that will finish soon and then we'll get some more Abadon in ghost form! It was good to get a full episode with him in it.

God knows how Locke going to meet up with the HJK in the mid 70s. Turn the wheel again or wait for a flash?

[James Mkintyre]

Seems that those who use the donkey wheel are 'reset' into real time and dropped off at the opposite side of the world. Locke and Ben weren't taken by the flash on flight 316 for this reason.

Ben killed Locke because he wants to go back to the island. It was the mention of Miss Hawking that triggered the switch, my thoughts are that Ben wanted to be the go-between and when he realised that Locke could actually do this without him, he killed Locke so as not to run that risk. In fairness, he DOES bring Locke back to the island. It's another one of those almost 50/50 good/bad decisions that Ben takes on alot, with some deeper rationale that always adds up but leaves a bitter taste in ones mouth.

Thought it was quite convenient that, at his lowest moment, Locke was ready and willing to give up as much information as possible. Ben must have been thinking its his birthday. Jin's alive? Aha, what will Sun say! He doesnt want Sun to come back? Ill need some leverage. He gave you his wedding ring? You're dead mango, fish!

Im pretty stoned but it strikes me now more than ever that Lost is so appropriately named as a show. Thinking generally about the paths these characters have taken and looking at where they are likely to lead, everyone is lost in their own way.

If the still-Losties are in 70s times, there are to be plenty of satisfying treats heading our way. See Kate raising white horse pup, Faraday installing swan button system, DI polar bears and rabbits pairing off in a casimir-showdown! And perhaps something a bit more farfetched... Locke's father, a DHARMA man?

Stay High <3

[Chris]

I can accept Widmore being the good guy much easier than Ben. Every episode where Ben is shown helping always has a last shot of him looking completely like the devil, Temping people with a sinister plan in mind.

to be honest there are things both ways that say either could be good or bad. That tape that ben showed locke of widmore i believe had him executing a person. Ben has killed several times, even his own father and that's cold. Widmore brought the C4 to the island, but ben blew it up.

I personally am going for the widmore side of the camp.

ben and lock beeing in normal time makes sense as they both turned the wheel and as been said can't go back. I would take it "go back", since they are on the island, as they can no longer be in the travailing time line that seems to cause things to play out.

What doesn't make sense is that it would appear Sun is also in the normal time as well. That is what i am assuming by the statement that the captain went off with a woman in one of the boats. Only she would have the immediate desire to find her husband possibly back at their camp.

so that puts the 2 of them going to the old camp in a boat. I'm guessing Locke might take boat there as well maybe with some of the new losties. There are the 2 boats at the old camp. So that would make it possible that juilet could have shot frank, sun, or one of the new losties. It can't be locke because he would remember the event and tell the people in the boat not to shoot at the other boat.

Syiad is a real wild card right now. We don't know what time he is in, probably the 70's, and he doesn't want to be there. He could cause a lot of trouble.

An idea i had recently is that Sun might be what messed up Ben's face and arm. She made a deal with widmore at the airport, widmore would know she would be lead by fate somehow to be grouped up with everyone who got off the island at some point, this would include desmond. If desmond is around that would mean that penny would possibly near by. Widmore also knows ben is watching all of them as much as he is so ben will see desmond and follow him back to penny to keep his promise.

Widmore would know all this will happen, just not know the when and where meaning he can't do anything, but he knows Sun would be there and she can help.

[Chris]

GOOD and BAD

We know there is a war to come, and we know the losties will affect who wins that war. So the questions arises Which side of the war is good and which side is bad.

I like to think if this as a sport of sorts.

Team A Lead by Coach Ben.
Team B Lead by Coach Widmore.

Now Coaches aren't players and can't win the game themselves.

Jack, Locke, Kate, .... They are the players. However unlike a normal sport they aren't necessarily on a set team, however they play for each team from time to time depending on on which coach they listen to.

Hawking, Possibly Abbadon, and Alpert are referees. They don't play the game but they keep each side informed of the rules, keep the game going.

Now I am lead to believe the game itself is the DHARMA purge. And the good or the bad is whether or not it happens.

Locke I think is the MVP and will eventually be the next replacement coach. The question is for which team.

[Rob]

People keep equating Ben and Widmore as the "leaders" of the opposing sides, and there is plenty of reason to do that, given Ben's visit to Widmore's bedroom last season, and the fact that Widmore blames Ben for his expulsion from the island.

However, Widmore appears to be "the man" in his organization, reporting to nobody, while Ben, at least in some ways, answers to Miss Hawking. This would make Ben, however reluctantly, a foot soldier (which his assassination and clean up duties would also indicate) more comparable to Abbadon. We never see Widmore get his hands dirty, making him the equivalent of Miss Hawking.

Given the theory that Eloise Hawking is "Ellie" from the island, this could mean that the original "split" over the island was just some lovers' spat...just kidding.

But seriously, from the beginning Ben has claimed that he is not "the" leader (not that he is known for telling the truth, but in this case, I think he is). He always reports to/takes direction from someone. On-island, that's Jacob. Off-island, it's Miss Hawking.

Perhaps Ben did trick Widmore off the island, but as a foot soldier, it was probably at someone else's (Eloise's?) direction. Widmore either doesn't know that, or can't bring himself to believe it, and therefore directs his hatred toward Ben.

If the battle truly boils down to Charles and Ellie fighting a proxy war with our Losties and others as the game pieces, what started it all? Did they have differing opinions about Dharma? Jughead? Richard? Jacob? Farraday? Just what the hell is going on? Help me.

[Jackeduplockedown]

Good Guy Bad Guy Scenario Unified theory

So dig this people

Widmore and Ben are both bad guys, the good guy is Richard Alpert who is the Island personified.

Alpert is the constant amongst the Island's inhabitants throughout time. He is the one who spearheads the selection of a leader for each new generation of Others.

In 1954 when Locke visited they we're in transition to young Widmore as leader after the previous leader turned the wheel and made the Island visible leading to the US military finding it and the well being buried.

Having heard tell of the Island and knowing the legend of it's mysterious origins from Hanso, The Dharma Initiative finds the Island and begins their manipulation of it's properties in hopes of daving the world.

The others do not at first engage the new visitors but instead share the Island and avoid their presence being known.
Charles Widmore is now the Others leader, sick of taking refuge underground and in the temple in the presence off Dharma he eventually decides they need to forecably remove the DI. He begins the attacks of the DI and unleashes Smokey on them.

This leads to the creation on the sonic fence and the term hostiles and shortly after a young Ben Linus arrives on the island. Alpert is brought by fate or Jacob to meet a young Ben (just as would later be guided to help a time traveling Locke) who is being courted by the Island via visions of his Mother. Alpert discovers this, knows the significance and combined with the fact that he does not like the way things are going under Widmore convinces Charles to allow Ben to join them as a double agent.

While that's happening out Losties show up in those same late 70's while skipping through time.
The incident occurs in the late 70's when our losties complete their mission or don't who knows and jump back into the proper time. This leads to all the new orientation videos and why the swan station must enter the numbers. It prevents there being enough stored energy at the wheel to allow time travel.

Ben begins communicating with Jacob and eventually finds out how to get rid of Widmore and the Dharma Initiative.

Having taken some of the Dharma stations by the mid-80's including the Orchid on the "Suspected Shutdown Date" October 24th 1984 according to the blast door map, Ben convinces Widmore he needs to move the Island which makes it impossible for the Dharma folks to get on or off the Island because it has moved and they no longer know the coordinates or bearing.

Shortly after this time the Dharma Initiative shuts down realizing they've lost all control. The Ah\MDG incident of 1985 is referenced as well as the closing of the medical station that same year.

Realizing the Dharma Initiative were still in the way and realizing they had no hope of off Island reinforcements, the new leader, Ben implies it is Jacob's (may or may not be, my guess is not) will to gas the DI and follows through with the purge.

Ben reestablishes a way on and off the Island and recruits people having some under the guise of being the Dharma Initiative and some not including Tom, Ethan, Goodwin, Klugh, Kelvin Inman and Mikhail Bakunin. He also imprisons Jacob which begins the course of action that brings Desmond to the Island and changes the course of history that we now witnessing unfold.

So in the end we find both Ben and Widmore to have been used by the Island but to have become corrupt and have been banished by the Island while it's true leader Locke has refused to do anything to harm anyone else unless willed by the Island has been resurrected in the present awaiting the events of history and fate involving his former self to play out so he can take his place as their leader for all-time.

[Russell Nichols]

Here’s my theory: I think Matthew Abbadon is Walt. Hear me out. When Locke approached Walt in the city, Abbadon says “I’ll give you two some privacy” and disappears. Maybe because he didn’t want himself to see his future self (Back to the Future style). When Locke returns, Abbadon says “I take it you didn’t ask him to come back.” How would he know that? He wasn’t around. Walt didn’t jump in the car with him so it could be assumed that Walt wasn’t coming, but how would Abbadon know that Locke didn’t even ask him — unless he remembers that conversation.

Also, Abbadon says he gets people where they need to be. The only way he would know where people need to be is to have some kind of foresight and Walt’s ability to see things before they happen (the exotic bird) has been evident throughout. Similar to when Walt appeared to Locke in the Pit and said, “you’ve got work to do.” And these premonitions were highlighted again this week when he said he keeps having that dream about Locke, a dream I believe will come to pass.

It would also make sense why Walt/Abbadon would side with Widmore. If he believed his dad might still be alive, Widmore probably hired him to round up the Freighter crew to help him get back to the Island. Or he might just blame Ben for the death of Michael. Either way, that gives him definite motive.

[Mike in the Box]

@ Russell

Nice thought, but some foresight he has if he ends up shot by Ben in the cemetery. The more likely theory is that Walt and Matthew are not the same person, nor related.

[Rok]

Ben only kept John from killing himself until he got all of the information John had. Pure and simple. As soon as Ben knew WHO to contact, it was game over for Locke.

[LeChuck]

Ben attacked Locke because he was going to go consult Ms. Hawking. Why?

[LeChuck]

Damon & Carlton revealed that we'll find out what happened to Kate & Aaron in episode 11. I'd guess we'll get the skinny on what happened to Hurley, Sayid, etc. as well.

[Mark B]

Locke wasn't going to consult Mrs Hawking or anyone else. If Ben hadn't barged in he would have killed himself. Ben saved Locke before he knew anything about Jin being alive and the stuff about Mrs Hawking. After he found out Ben killed Locke. If Ben had not come in Locke would have died. Perhaps Bens plan all along was to find out what Locke knew then kill him and Lockes almost suicide was a coincidence. Perhaps Ben killing Locke is a course correction ??!!??

I like the idea someone else had that suicides can't, for some reason, be reincarnated by the island. I may have this wrong but isn't suicide considered a really bad sin by some religions, bad enough so you don't get into heaven.

[Marty]

Ben made a point of cleaning up after murdering lock, to the point where he had some sort of cleaner, not just wiping down any fingerprints with just a cloth. He preparedness, and the fact that the camera deliberately stayed on this ritual for a bit, showed that Ben planned to kill Locke all along.

Ben kneeling before Locke, as Locke was about to kill himself, definitely had the Pontious Pilate reference.

Locke revealing that Jin was still alive and he had proof of the wedding ring surprised Ben, and gave Ben leverage to bring Sun back to the island.

Ben saying as he closed the door that 'he really will miss Locke' probably means that Ben doesn't think he'll see Locke resurrected on the island...it will be interesting to see his reaction when he wakes up and sees Locke.

[mark b]

so if ben planned on killing Locke why not let him kill himself and not run the risk of getting caught?

[Jackeduplockedown]

Ben waited to Kill Locke because

He needed to know what to do next.

[Scott in Philly]

i'm pretty sure lapidus and the stewardess were doing it in the lavatory -- that's who he rowed away with.

[Rok]

By the way, unrelated to the most recent episode, but I feel it needs to be brought up:

I just returned form a week's vacation in Thailand, mostly in Bangkok, but some time in both the mountains and beach. Thailand is easily 99% Buddhist, and I saw references to the number 108 on more than one occasion in seemingly random places (the name of a convenience store, for one, was the strangest placement, but I saw other instances) and of course, the Dharma symbol, with the yin-yang in the centre. I think we may need to re-explore the Buddhist connections to the mythos of LOST.

P.S. I just want to say, having been dealign with 12 hr. jet lag for the past week, I can TOTALLY see how someone could just die from the jet lag of being yanked back and forth decades through time.

[Rok]

Also, I cannot help but giggle at the phrase "a clean-shaven Lapidus."

[Lauren]

Just wondering if anyone else remembers back last season? Wasn't Jeremy Bentham killed/committed suicide at the address of the Mandarin Hotel in L.A.? Can't remember the exact episode, but it seems that the obit said he was survived by a teenage son?

[riverfr0zen]

1:42: Where Walt is killed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYkxZMg5_CY

(it's just a joke)

[Psojinx]

At the beginning of the episode, Ceasar is looking at the island map and some notes. The camera focuses on some notes which show the term "imaginary time"

Stuff from wikipedia:
Imaginary time is difficult to visualize. If we imagine "regular time" as a horizontal line with "past" on one side and "future" on the other, then imaginary time would run perpendicular to this line as the imaginary numbers run perpendicular to the real numbers in the complex plane. However, imaginary time is not imaginary in the sense that it is unreal or made-up—it simply runs in a direction different from the type of time we experience. In essence, imaginary time is a way of looking at the time dimension as if it were a dimension of space: you can move forward and backward along imaginary time, just like you can move right and left in space.

Putting it out there for discussion, maybe someone can align it with what's going on

[Mike in the Box]

Here is a screencap to the notes that Psojinx is speaking of...

http://i.iimmgg.com/images/gr/7d91b7788b0eb1219d693a4e29072f3f.jpg

[Rebecca]

I Apologize - i originally posted this comment in the wrong place - one eppy too soon? but here is a thought that i cant get out of my mind:

I dont know if this was mentioned already and if it was I apologize. But I feel that it was right for Ben To Kill Locke - because Locke had to die to save everyone and return to the island. BUT if he killed himself he (Locke) cold never return - becuase suicide is the ultimate sin and the Island would not welcome him back.(im viewing the island as heaven and according to catholic faith if you commit suicide you do not enter heaven - or so im told) therefore - Locke had to Die and Ben had to kill him.

AND I want to thank you very much for this podcast = I just discovered it and it has brought me so much joy! (not to sound geeky or weird) BUT I dont know anyone else around me that I talk to that is hooked on LOST like I am and to find this site - makes me realize im not alone! LOL :) thank you - you are all so talented and IMO Wise!! keep em comming! :)