LOSTCasts 74: The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham

This podcast focuses on season 5, episode 7 of LOST, The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham. Join Matt and John as we question Ben's role as protector of the island, speculation about the upcoming "war" Widmore mentions, where we're at in the timeline on the island, Walt's future role and more.

Download podcast #74 here

Links related to the podcast:
Lostpedia on episode 7
Screencap of Hurley's Sphinx drawing
Edgar from UK's pictures of Jeremy Bentham pub

Join us next week for another episode and a new podcast! Stay LOST.

Comments

[WeakLemonDrink]

> Join Matt and John

It's going to be a good one!

[mark]

Episode league table.

http://darkufo.blogspot.com/2009/02/episode-league-table-season-5-week-6.html

[Paul P Roche]

Thank you as ever

[Sobaika]

YESSS! Thank you.

[connor]

Thanks guys, can't wait to listen http://www.connorclements.tv

[Eric from Double Feature]

Just a heads up for the future, it's AB-A-DON, not a-badon. Also the old other were never seen wearing hoods, just beat up clothing. Great show this week though, I'm glad you guys are still putting them out even without the whole crew. Look forward to it next week!

[Alex]

I think Locke, Ben, and the new people are in the future, not the past because the canoe with the Ajira items was at the beach when the camp was already there. Also, I really am not thinking Christian is Jacob since he said he wasn't in Cabin Fever.

[Mike in the Box]

First: Where did you get confirmation that Sun was the woman who went off with Lapidus? That was never mentioned. I assumed it was the flight attendant who went with him.

Second: I stand by my theory that Jack, Kate, Hurley, and presumably Sun and Sayid are in DHARMA time (circa 1960-70) while the rest of the Ajira flight are in the present (circa 2008).

Third: That was the runway that Juliet had Sawyer and Kate working on.

Forth: The Hydra station is empty because that group of people are in the present (2008).

[Dan]

One thought I had was what if John is not supposed to kill himself, but needs to be killed by another means? Ben, i think, knows this. That is why he kills John. Maybe someone already said this, but I didn't remember hearing it in the podcast. Take Christian Sheppard for example. Did he dies from alcoholism or something else. I can't remember.

[MisterMingo]

Yeah, guys I think you're confused on when Locke, Caesar, and Ilana are in time. The Ajira plane landed in 2008-2009 or so, not in the 70s. That's why Caesar said Hurley vanished. He, Jack, and Kate went back to Dharma times, Locke, Sun, Ben, and Lapidus are in the present. At least, that's my guess. Seemed pretty obvious to me since the Hydra station was abandoned.

Which brings up a thought. Is the smaller Hydra island affected by time the same as the main island? Is that why they're in the present? Just a thought.

[Mike in the Box]

Why do people think that Sun is with the Lapidus and the Ajira people? Can someone point me to a clue about that?

[Copyhacker]

I hope I'm wrong, but the scene with Walt felt like he was being written out of the show--an awkward loose end they wanted to tie up as quickly as possible. Same thing with Abaddon's death, although I can understand that one, since the actor has a new gig.

BTW, are you guys on Twitter?

[Chris]

@Copyhacker

I don't think he is out of the show. Locke was brought to Walt because he is another one that needs to come back to the island apparently. Though Locke didn't ask him because he feels like he has "been through too much already" Locke was also not going to ask Sun, but fate brings her in anyway. I don't think he will ever have a big roll but I'm guessing we haven't seen the last of Walt.

[Jackeduplockedown]

Also wondering why we think Sun left with Lapedis...

[MisterMingo]

I think Sun is with Lapidus because 1) she wasn't with Jack, Kate, and Hurley, 2) she's standing in front of Ben in the preview for next week. But I mean, who else would run off with Lapidus? Some stranger?

[Ash]

It sounds like Sun left with Lapidus because she's the only other woman we know on the flight since Kate's already with Jack, plus we didn't see her with either the injured people or Jack.

Also I came across a theory that Ben may have killed Locke because of the promise on Gin and not because of Hawking. Haven't heard it mentioned anywhere else so worth a read:
http://www.tvshark.com/read/?art=arc3173

[Mike in the Box]

The other woman could have easily been the flight attendant and not Sun.

[Jackeduplockedown]

@mister Mingo

No big deal on this one, but please do not post promo spoilers without marking them.

I know I am not the only one here who intentionally avoids previews as well as all other spoilers

[Mark B]

My assumption is that Sun should not be with Lapidus as she like the other members of the O5 (6 minus Aaron) should be with Jin in Dharma times as surely she was "zapped" out of the plane like the rest were. Proof of this is that Ben. Casaer and Ilana were al sat near the O5 but were not "zapped". It would be a bit of a hole is she was not zapped but everyone else was. It must be the swardess but why did they not refer to her as such "the pilot and stewardess" rather than "the pilot and some woman".

As for the time when the 316ers are ..... not sure but the Hydra station didn't look it was abandoned that long ago so it can't be too far into the LOST future. But it has to be post-Dharma and post-Others or they'd be there. I'm going with 2008.

[Mark B]

Sorry that should have read.

Proof of this is that Ben and Lapidus whilst being from, or having been on, the island did not get zapped but Jack/Kate and Hurley, who are all members of the O5, did. Casaer and Ilana didn't get zapped but were very close to the O5 so it can't be location on the plane. Therefore Sun (and Sayid) should have been zapped. We've not seen Sayid so I assume he's in Dharma days just on a different part of the island.

[Hamish Thompson]

Do you think maybe Hurley is the model for the sphinx? Same hairstyle....

Got me thinking. Easter Island statues - Jack Shepherd lookalikes....

[Kristin]

Hey guys,

Just started listening to this weeks episode and got to the disagreement about whether Ben or Widmore is "working for the island". I have two comments. 1) Who says that white is good and black is bad (in backgammon)? They are simply polar opposites and don't necessarily represent good and evil. 2) Ben didn't kill Locke in response to the Jin/Sun thing. He killed Locke as soon as Locke mentioned needing to see Eloise Hawking. I think that is the key - something about Locke needing to see Hawking and Ben interfering. I have no idea where this leads, but the murder was definitely in response to Hawking's mention.

[Kristin]

Addendum to above:

Sorry guys! I just finished your podcasts and heard you discuss the Ms. Hawking mentioned right before the murder thing. Should have listened through before posting. :)

[Brian]

A couple random notes after watching 316 and TLADOJB:

Does the Lamppost explain the Dharma food drops? or does the island moving around in time explain that?

We have seen previously that Sayid does somehow infiltrate the Dharma Initiative, so he is in the past. Interesting side point - go back and watch the first scene of the first episode this season - is that Sawyer behind the camera filming Marvin Candle?

[Spalz]

Anyone ever think back to Michael? When he wanted to kill himself the island wouldnt let him. He tried a few times and a few ways and the island never let that happen. What if the same would have been true for Locke? Would the island not let him kill himself if he did jump off that table in the hotel room? I'm thinking that Ben knew that he would have been unsuccessful in the attempt, and he stepped up and took the responsibility and killed him. That would make sense.
With all the twists that keep coming, I think we're going to find out that Ben's really a good guy, and he does what he has to do for the good of the island.

[Kristi]

"We have seen previously that Sayid does somehow infiltrate the Dharma Initiative, so he is in the past."

When did we see Sayid? I remember seeing Daniel dressed as a Dharma worker at the Orchid Station in the first episode.

[Brian]

Spalz - this is a good point about the island not letting Michael kill himself. That brought up to me another point: that Locke still hasn't killed anyone, which was kind of a theme a couple seasons ago...

[frankmorris]

So far we've only seen Jin and Daniel assimilated with Dharma (circa early 80's?).
A few Questions:
If Sawyer joins Dharma, will he and Jin meet Roger workman? Have a few beers?
Will they meet a bug eyed young man with daddy issues?
What will Jack from "Jay and Jack" say if Rose and Bernard join Dharma?

[ebonX]

@Ash - I had a similar theory (although not nearly as thought-out or well-written) as the TV Shark article, after watching TPID ...

"'Others don't break deals!' - Have you noticed that Ben, as leader of the Others, has never broken a deal that was ever made with the Losties. I think this will hold true with John Locke & his promise to Jin, which will force Locke to accept Ben's help to get Sun back to the Island, without breaking John's promise to Jin."

[Chris]

Now correct me if i'm wrong, but i have a bit of time travel time confusion.

3 days it took locke to reach and adjust the FDW. Assuming that took the ones that stayed i.e. juliet, sayer, jin ... to the dharma times where they have been until now. That means that they have been in the dharma time, from their perspective about 3 years? I think i even remember a comment from sayer in the preview saying something about still loving kate even after 3 years?

can someone back what i'm thinking?

[Jackeduplockedown]

@ Chris

Almost positive that's it, that they've been in Dharma times three years give or take.

P.S. No promo or preview info posted without warning please.

[Tahir]

Sawyer - "Your buddy out there with the eyeliner"
That made me laugh out loud.
And wasn't Horace looking a bit podgy.

I loved this episode.
Good to see Sawyer back in 'con' mode.

[lmnop]

four toed statue! I was so excited to see this, even if it's only the backside! I'm currently taking an egyptology class, so it was good to see a few ancient egyptian "shout-outs", if you will. The statue may be Horus, who is not only a God but also is a term used to describe the living pharaoh and also has many other interpretations attached.

Horace seems to be in charge of dharma before "lafleur" comes along, could his name be a reference to the Egyptian Horus, which would be the leader of egypt?

The ankh was also a cool symbol to see, as it represents eternal life.

I tried reading the heiroglyphs from the temple, but they were too hard to interpret as some didn't seem to be signs, and i couldn't tell whether they were meant to be interpreted as individual letters making up a word, or pictures meant to be representations of some larger idea. That's the tricky thing about them!

[Rok]

I ran out of the room as soon as the "next week on LOST" stuff started. I learned the hard way in the latter half of Season 2 and early Season 3 that spoilers and previews (especially the spoilerrific previews ABC likes to air) were robbing me of half my enjoyment of the episodes.

Interesting that Sawyer didn't tell Juliet the other folks were back, only because did he really think he could hide it for very long?

Also, one wonders if the Losties will still be in the Dharma compound when the Others decide to wipe them all out. Plus, does anyone else get the feeling that while Hurley, Jack and Kate got yanked into this time period, Locke and Ben did not? I say that because in this episode, it appears all Dharma stations are very active and "the truce" is keeping it all together, yet in the last episode, Caesar looked to be rifling through Dharma offices that were abandoned. And Daniel KNOWS that Charlotte told him he would tell her as a child not to come back, so does he try to break the cycle? Or is it impossible to break the cycle because, as Ms. Hawking once said, the universe has a way of course-correcting, and he (or someone) is destined to do SOMEthing that sends Charlotte back to the island.

Last thoughts: I wonder who that baby that was delivered grows up to be?

[jenn]

Where have we seen LaFleur's jumpsuit before?Was it the one Ben was wearing when he turned the FDW? I can't remember.

[Andy]

I think that Ben killed Locke because he didn't know that Locke new about Ms Hawking and didn't want John Locke to meet her. I think that Ms Hawking was going to tell John something either about Ben or about what Locke should expect when he gets back to island. Ben knew enough to hitch a ride with the Losties and will blindside them when he gets them on the island. I also think Ms Hawking knows that Ben killed John and that she is simply using Ben to get the Losties together and back on the island.

Ms Hawking and Daniel are integral to the entire arc of the show, and they will be the ones to reveal how this show closes out.

[DannyBoy]

just a thought.....

dont no if anyone said this yet, or if it's got any relevence

"lafleur" n his crew were in dhama time for 3years before jack etc returned and jack etc were off the island for 3years before they returned. so even thought they've been living in different times both groups havnt seen eachother for the same amount of time

[jenn]

I was wrong Ben had on Waxman's jumpsuit. Have we seen LaFleur's Darma jumpsuit in a previous episode?

[Jackeduplockedown]

A few thoughts on a few things

1. Dharma\Ben\Losties Timeline

December 19th 1963-65 Ben Linus is Born his Mother dies adn his father and he are taken to the hospital by Horace and Olivia Goodspeed

1974 - Losties show up on the Island and almost inadvertently end the truce between the Hostiles and Dharma. Paul, Amy's Husband is killed.

1975-1977 Roger and Ben Linus arrive on the Island and there is no longer an existing truce with the hostiles as evidenced by the fighting Ben witnesses early on in his classroom where he is taight by Olivia Goodspeed. Also during this time Horace falls for Amy and she become pregnant.

So what happened to Olivia and Horace?

Not sure it matters, but it's a strange thing to ignore considering she is still on the Island and they were presumably married in the early to mid 60's.

2. Egyptian mythology References all over the place

From another site; this sums up my research with a few additions I can't verify but seem pretty cool.

A quick game of Match the Egyptian God with the corresponding Lost character

Ra – Richard Albert
Ra was the almost universally-worshipped king of the gods and all-father of creation. Ra is the most central god of the Egyptian pantheon. He is the only god, apart from Osiris, who is definitely said to be not on the earth. Ra, it is said, is an aging god, still powerful, but too old to deal with his children any longer, so he has gone exclusively to the sky to watch over the world.
Comment: He is definitely an ageing God, just not physically. We see him frequently show up in the show, but does seem as if he watches over but does not interfere however he is still powerful and his authority never challenged, in the present at least. He is definitely not of this earth because of the entire phenomenon associated with him.

Osiris – John Locke
Throughout the height of Egyptian civilization, Osiris was the primary deity. In power, he was second only his father, Ra, and was the leader of the gods on earth. Osiris resided in the underworld as the lord of the dead, as after being killed by Set.
Comment: He definitely does listen and follow Richard and does do what he says. He now resides in the underworld because he was killed.

Set – Ben
Set was one of ancient Egypt's earliest gods, a god of chaos, confusion, storms, wind, the desert and foreign lands. He was a contender to the throne of Osiris and rival to Horus, but a companion to the sun god Ra. Originally worshiped and seen as an ambivalent being, during the Third Intermediate Period the people vilified him and turned him into a god of evil. But Seth is not an evil god: he is the god who committed the immoral and evil act of murdering his brother Osiris, but it was this vile act that allowed Osiris to fulfil his destiny and become the god of the dead. Without Seth, there would not have been life after death.
Comment: He does use Smokey to cause damage; also he does travel to and from the island. He does rival Horus as we have found out, and definitely wants to be leader over Locke, but as we have seen has always been a companion of Richard’s. Does appear as if people now view him as evil. He did kill Locke and fulfilled the destiny of sacrifice and rebirth.

Horus – Horace
The worship of Horus was brought from the outside by neighbouring tribes who invaded and then settled into Egypt. He was their god of war; he was the protector and guide to the pharaoh on earth. He also continual battles with Set.
Comment: Brought outside by Dharma Initiative, elevated as leader to fight the others (war). Battles with Ben but Ben and the others topple him. Also is a guide to John Locke when he shows him where the map is.

Anubis – Jacob
Anubis was the god to protect the dead and bring them to the afterlife. The distinctive black color of Anubis “with the black soil of the Nile valley, symbolizing rebirth."
My Comment: Does seem to control the dead as we have seen with Jack’s dad and advising others.

Ammit- Smokey
Ammit is described as "The Devourer" patron of destruction of the souls of the wicked. Ammit sits beneath the Scales of Justice, waiting for the souls to be judged. If the soul is found to be more wicked than good, Anibus feeds it to Ammit.
Comment:This describes Smokey very well, also beneath the scales beneath the temple where Jacob previously resided.

[lexi]

I have a wonky crazy theory. If our losties are in 1974 and the flashes have stopped, if they don't flash forward to the future anytime soon, and continue on, they will definitely overlap with themselves. Also, it looks like we have three different age groups on the island, and not many in between:

1. Babies/Children (Aaron, Ji-Yeon, Clementine, Baby born in this episode -which I definitely think is Ethan- and Kate and Jack's possible love child)
2. Twenty/Thirty-somethings (Jack, Desmond, Sawyer, Kate, Sun, Jin, Juliet, Miles)
3. Fifty/Sixty-somethings (Christian, Eloise, Locke, Ben, Widmore, Etc.)

My theory is that our Losties become older characters and overlap their adult selves. For example, wouldn't it be freakin weird if Sawyer was Locke's father. Even jankier, what if Jack is Christian. It would explain how they are both alcoholic and why Christian pushes Jack to perfection as a surgeon. Also, Juliet could be Eloise, they have very similiar personalities and are women of science. Miles could be Sun's father?

I think that Widmore is trying to keep the everyone overlapping with themselves, and Ben is trying to throw a monkey wrench into it, hence the infamous "List"

Also, I could help but notice all of the Egyptian references. The statue was sculpted in the classical Egyptian form. Arms to the side, right foot slightly forward, body very rigid and postured. Also, the writers did confirm that Alpert does wear eyeliner, when in history was it common for me to wear black eyeliner.... Egypt! Also, the island is completely full of hieroglyphics, not mention the Anhk that Amy's husband wore got some screen time this episode. I think that maybe Alpert is an immortal Egyptian God or Demigod running around the island.

[Mark B]

I really liked this episode. If I have any complaint it is that it went too fast and we didn't see enough of the three years in Dharma.

I wonder if that is all we'll see of the statue, I bet it is, but I hope not. As most people have mentioned it looked like some kind of Egyptian deal.

I too wonder what happened to Olivia who used to hang out with Horace.... She never got a mention. (Perhaps it's as simple as the actress was busy and couldn't get to Hawaii).

I thought Amy (Horaces wife) was going to have a daughter and it was going to be Charlotte. Now I think his son turns out to be Jacob.

Liked the whole being in Dharma times.

Sawyer seems happy with Juliet and never seemed that happy with Kate. I know the situation is different but he does seem happy.

Wonder where Rose and Bernard are ? Are they in Dharma somewhere ? Surely not ? Living rough on the island ? Doubt it. With the Hostiles ?

So if the Hostiles can walk through the sonic-boom fence why don't they ? Or is it just Richard who can wander about at will ?

I like the whole truce thing but not sure the burying the bodies. I mean what is Alpert going to think when two of his men disappear ? Why does he need Pauls body ? An eye for an eye deal ?

I thought the fact Juliet shot that one Hostile was a nice shout to the episode when Kate and Sawyer were building the runway and they tried to escape and someone said something about the blonde would have shot you, without thinking about it.

Liked Sawyer taking charge and making a deal with Alpert. The whole interaction was, as John says, "interesting". Alpert apparently in total control but being completely shocked by Sawyer.

The whole time travel thing and affecting the past seems to have been switched as now they are in the past changing all sorts of things (killing the Hostiles, interacting with Dharma etc.) so does that change the future ? Or is it as Daniel said "What happened happened" is this what always happened ? Will the Losties end up dying in the purge only to crash again in 2004 stuck in some kind of spin cycle ?

All but Jin were on Bea's list. Is this what the list was about ?

Wonder what is going to happen now with Jack et al turning up. How will they be assimilated into Dharma ? It's not like they can pretend to be the crew that have been lost for the last three years. Will they pretend to be another crash ?

I think Sawyer will be in big trouble with Juliet for not mentioning why he was running out. All that fore-shadowing of the getting over someone just for him apparently not to have gotten over Kate. I'm no shipper but please don't go back Sawyer.

[Rebecca]

IMO Ben is the "lost" angel trying to make things right with God and get back to Heaven (the island) and belong and be accepted. I too am Team Ben

[Rebecca]

I still think this is all simple and in your face - bible related- widmore "exiled from island" satan cast out - but who is the real satan? Widmore or Ben who exiled him? still going back to my theory - the island is "heaven"

[Rebecca]

sorry for my spelling of names is they are wrong.

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